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Thread: Canada to remain in Afghanistan untill 2011

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    Senior Contributor Canmoore's Avatar
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    Canada to remain in Afghanistan untill 2011

    Harper unveils new Afghan motion with 2011 end date

    Hear is the motion in its entirety.
    Government Motion

    That, whereas,

    this House recognizes the important contribution and sacrifice of Canadian Forces and Canadian civilian personnel as part of the UN mandated, NATO-led mission deployed in Afghanistan at the request of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan;

    this House believes that Canada must remain committed to the people of Afghanistan beyond February 2009;

    this House takes note that in February 2002, the government took a decision to deploy 850 troops to Kandahar to join the international coalition that went to Afghanistan to drive out the Taliban in the wake of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 and that this deployment lasted for six months at which time the troops rotated out of Afghanistan and returned home;

    this House takes note that in February 2003 the government took a decision that Canada would commit 2000 troops and lead for one year, starting in the summer of 2003, the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Kabul and at the end of the one-year commitment, Canada's 2000 troop commitment was reduced to a 750-person reconnaissance unit as Canada's NATO ally, Turkey, rotated into Kabul to replace Canada as the lead nation of the ISAF mission;

    this House takes note that in August 2005, Canada assumed responsibility of the Provincial Reconstruction Team in Kandahar province which included roughly 300 Canadian Forces personnel;

    this House takes note that the government took a decision to commit a combat Battle Group of roughly 1200 troops to Kandahar for a period of one year, from February 2006 to February 2007;

    this House takes note that in January 2006, the government participated in the London Conference on Afghanistan which resulted in the signing of the Afghanistan Compact which set out benchmarks and timelines until the end of 2010 for improving the security, the governance and the economic and social development of Afghanistan;

    this House takes note that in May 2006, Parliament supported the government's two year extension of Canada's deployment of diplomatic, development, civilian police and military personnel in Afghanistan and the provision of funding and equipment for this extension;

    this House welcomes the Report of the Independent Panel on Canada's Future Role in Afghanistan, chaired by the Honourable John Manley, and recognizes the important contribution its members have made;

    this House takes note that it has long been a guiding principle of Canada's involvement in Afghanistan that all three components of a comprehensive government strategy - defence, diplomacy and development - must reinforce each other and that the government must strike a balance between these components to be most effective;

    this House takes note that the ultimate aim of Canadian policy is to leave Afghanistan to Afghans, in a country that is better governed, more peaceful and more secure and to create the necessary space and conditions to allow the Afghans themselves to achieve a political solution to the conflict; and

    this House takes note that in order to achieve that aim, it is essential to assist the people of Afghanistan to have properly trained, equipped and paid members of the four pillars of their security apparatus: the army, the police, the judicial system and the corrections system;

    therefore,

    it is the opinion of this House that Canada should continue a military presence in Kandahar beyond February 2009, to July 2011, in a manner fully consistent with the UN mandate on Afghanistan, and that the military mission shall consist of:

    (a) training the Afghan National Security Forces so that they can expeditiously take increasing responsibility for security in Kandahar and Afghanistan as a whole;

    (b) providing security for reconstruction and development efforts in Kandahar; and

    (c) the continuation of Canada's responsibility for the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team;

    And it is the opinion of this House that, consistent with this mandate, this extension of Canada's military presence in Afghanistan is approved by this House expressly on the condition that:

    (a) NATO secure a battle group of approximately 1000 to rotate into Kandahar (operational no later than February 2009);

    (b) to better ensure the safety and effectiveness of the Canadian contingent, the government secure medium helicopter lift capacity and high performance Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance before February 2009; and

    (c) the government of Canada notify NATO that Canada will end its presence in Kandahar as of July 2011, and, as of that date, the redeployment of Canadian Forces troops out of Kandahar and their replacement by Afghan forces start as soon as possible, so that it will have been completed by December 2011;

    And it is the opinion of this House that the government of Canada, together with our allies and the government of Afghanistan, must set firm targets and timelines for the training, equipping and paying of the Afghan National Army, the Afghan National Police, the members of the judicial system and the members of the correctional system;

    And it is the opinion of this House that Canada's contribution to the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan should:

    (a) be revamped and increased to strike a better balance between our military efforts and our development efforts in Afghanistan;

    (b) focus on our traditional strengths as a nation, particularly through the development of sound judicial and correctional systems and strong political institutions on the ground in Afghanistan and the pursuit of a greater role for Canada in addressing the chronic fresh water shortages in the country;

    (c) address the crippling issue of the narco-economy that consistently undermines progress in Afghanistan, through the pursuit of solutions that do not further alienate the goodwill of the local population; and

    (d) be held to a greater level of accountability and scrutiny so that the Canadian people can be sure that our development contributions are being spent effectively in Afghanistan;

    And it is the opinion of this House that Canada should assert a stronger and more disciplined diplomatic position regarding Afghanistan and the regional players, including support for the naming of a special envoy to the region who could both ensure greater coherence in all diplomatic initiatives in the region and also press for greater coordination amongst our partners in the UN in the pursuit of common diplomatic goals in the region;

    And it is the opinion of this House that the Government should provide the public with franker and more frequent reporting on events in Afghanistan, offering more assessments of Canada's role and giving greater emphasis to the diplomatic and reconstruction efforts as well as those of the military and, for greater clarity, the Government should table in Parliament detailed reports on the progress of the mission in Afghanistan on a quarterly basis;

    And it is the opinion of this House that the House of Commons should strike a special Parliamentary committee on Afghanistan which would meet regularly with the Ministers of Foreign Affairs, International Cooperation and National Defence and other senior officials and that the House should authorize travel by the special committee to Afghanistan and the surrounding region so that the special committee can make frequent recommendations on the conduct and progress of our efforts in Afghanistan;

    And it is the opinion of this House that the special Parliamentary Committee on Afghanistan should review the laws and procedures governing the use of operational and national security exceptions for the withholding of information from Parliament, the Courts and the Canadian people with those responsible for administering those laws and procedures, to ensure that Canadians are being provided with ample information on the conduct and progress of the mission;

    And it is the opinion of this House that with respect to the transfer of Afghan detainees to Afghan authorities, the Government must:

    (a) commit to meeting the highest NATO and international standards with respect to protecting the rights of detainees, transferring only when it believes it can do so in keeping with Canada's international obligations;

    (b) pursue a NATO-wide solution to the question of detainees through diplomatic efforts that are rooted in the core Canadian values of respect for human rights and the dignity of all people; and

    (c) commit to a policy of greater transparency with respect to its policy on the taking of and transferring of detainees including a commitment to report on the results of reviews or inspections of Afghan prisons undertaken by Canadian officials;

    And it is the opinion of this House that the government must commit to improved interdepartmental coordination to achieve greater cross-government coherence and coordination of the government's domestic management of our commitment to Afghanistan, including the creation of a full-time task force which is responsible directly to the Prime Minister to lead these efforts.

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    All this talk and in fighting by the individual parties and its NOT just Canada, regarding bring the boys home etc etc ad nausium, AQ, The Taliban and uncle tom cobbly and all the terrorist organisations in the world, are just loving it, are these people so naive as to believe that by bringing the boys home it will put an end to it, and the "trouble" will remmain wthin the borders of the countries we leave
    As an "old soldier" and I am sure all you military men on this forum agree with me, I would love nothing better than to see our military men without a job to do .....................now back to reality, .......IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN...I dont give a monkeys chuff what party a politician belongs to, he should dam well support the troops SORRY military with the equipment and support they need NOT give the enemy the propaganda and will to go on by there mindless vote seeking rhetoric....................TO ALL THE POLITICIANS OF THE WORLD WHATEVER YOUR LEANINGS AND BELIEFS.....TERRORISM WILL NOT GO AWAY UNTILL THE WAR ON TERROR IS WON...........GET IT THROUGH THOSE DAM THICK HEADS..ITS GOING TO BE LONG, DRAINING AND COSTLY..........BUT I THINK OUR FREEDOM IS WORTH IT.............If only I was 20 again ........................rant over

    ps ... no politician whatever party gets my vote unless he will openly state he supports the military.
    Last edited by T_igger_cs_30; 22 Feb 08, at 23:04.
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    Senior Contributor Canmoore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
    ps ... no politician whatever party gets my vote unless he will openly state he supports the military.
    Agreed Tigger!!

    Canadian CoDS Gen.Hilliar has asked for a clear statement on Afghanistan from Ottawa. Because, he says that all this political jostling about the mission is going to make the CF look like the "weak link" in the south, and potentially lead to more CF casualties.

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canmoore View Post
    Agreed Tigger!!

    Canadian CoDS Gen.Hilliar has asked for a clear statement on Afghanistan from Ottawa. Because, he says that all this political jostling about the mission is going to make the CF look like the "weak link" in the south, and potentially lead to more CF casualties.
    Well it has not helped with the German pm saying she will not allow Germans in combat......even if it is not the intent it shows a fragmented coalition, and gives the enemy hope
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    Dion won Staring Contest!

    Quote Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
    ... are these people so naive as to believe that by bringing the boys home it will put an end to it, and the "trouble" will remain wthin the borders of the countries we leave
    As a proud member of the Liberal Party of Canada I'd like to say just one thing.

    The Liberals are not, and have not, supported a never ending military mission in Afghanistan. Harper was made aware of this from the outset. Harper knew the Liberal Party was prepared to go to an election on this issue. Harper wisely attached an end date of 2011, largely because Stephane Dion would not flinch to his bullying.

    I agree with Tigger that bringing the troops home does not mean that the Taliban can't attack us on our own soil. Indeed, 9/11 was proof that left to their own devices they can.

    But the mission was never about 100% rooting out terrorism. Such a thing is impossible to do. Rather the mission was about seriously handicapping the terrorists. If the Canadian troops continue to kick their asses up til 2011, then Canada would probably not have to deal with terrorist threats emanating from Afghanistan until 2020.

    Best

    Flower

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    As a proud member of the Liberal Party of Canada I'd like to say just one thing.

    The Liberals are not, and have not, supported a never ending military mission in Afghanistan. Harper was made aware of this from the outset. Harper knew the Liberal Party was prepared to go to an election on this issue. Harper wisely attached an end date of 2011, largely because Stephane Dion would not flinch to his bullying.

    I agree with Tigger that bringing the troops home does not mean that the Taliban can't attack us on our own soil. Indeed, 9/11 was proof that left to their own devices they can.

    But the mission was never about 100% rooting out terrorism. Such a thing is impossible to do. Rather the mission was about seriously handicapping the terrorists. If the Canadian troops continue to kick their asses up til 2011, then Canada would probably not have to deal with terrorist threats emanating from Afghanistan until 2020.

    Best

    Flower
    I would argue your timelines however, even so you still think its acceptable to show this weakness/fragmentation to the enemy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
    I would argue your timelines however, even so you still think its acceptable to show this weakness/fragmentation to the enemy?
    Can you name a single war in the history of mankind that has gone on forever? Just because a war ends eventually does not mean the participants of that war are weak.

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Can you name a single war in the history of mankind that has gone on forever? So to will this war not go on forever.
    Tell me a terrorist organisation that will not exploit weakness ?
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    Senior Contributor Canmoore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    As a proud member of the Liberal Party of Canada I'd like to say just one thing.

    The Liberals are not, and have not, supported a never ending military mission in Afghanistan. Harper was made aware of this from the outset. Harper knew the Liberal Party was prepared to go to an election on this issue. Harper wisely attached an end date of 2011, largely because Stephane Dion would not flinch to his bullying.

    I agree with Tigger that bringing the troops home does not mean that the Taliban can't attack us on our own soil. Indeed, 9/11 was proof that left to their own devices they can.

    But the mission was never about 100% rooting out terrorism. Such a thing is impossible to do. Rather the mission was about seriously handicapping the terrorists. If the Canadian troops continue to kick their asses up til 2011, then Canada would probably not have to deal with terrorist threats emanating from Afghanistan until 2020.

    Best

    Flower
    You guys crack me up.. It sure is a good thing boneheads like you did not exist during the second world war..

    according to you terrorism cannot be routed out. I am sure glad that Canada did not believe that same sentiment, and say that fascism cannot be routed out, and put a time table for ending its combat role in Europe.

    You liberals really make me sick sometimes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canmoore View Post
    You guys crack me up.. It sure is a good thing boneheads like you did not exist during the second world war..

    according to you terrorism cannot be routed out. I am sure glad that Canada did not believe that same sentiment, and say that fascism cannot be routed out, and put a time table for ending its combat role in Europe.

    You liberals really make me sick sometimes...
    Well, very soon we will be back in power and then you will see the difference in good governance that we bring. Sometimes only by contrast can one understand a difference.

    Election 08 - Vote Stephane Dion !!!!!!!!!

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    Military Professional T_igger_cs_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Well, very soon we will be back in power and then you will see the difference in good governance that we bring. Sometimes only by contrast can one understand a difference.

    Election 08 - Vote Stephane Dion !!!!!!!!!
    Sorry have to disagree with you, we have at present the build up to Provincial elections ongoing, here in Aberta I do believe that the Liberals provinicially have a better chance than the Liberals federally and then I dont rate there chances highly, lets face it at least federally, the Tories have given the Military some dignity back, the respect worlwide was never lost for the Canadian Military but that was due to the men and women of the Forces in spite of weak and irresponsible Liberal leadership.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Harper knew the Liberal Party was prepared to go to an election on this issue. Harper wisely attached an end date of 2011, largely because Stephane Dion would not flinch to his bullying.
    You're joking, right? Dion is the one who flinch. What's that line that he will never tolerate a combat mission past Feb 2009. That is non-negotiable? And you do know that if the Conservatives get a majority in 2011, that they can extend that mission as well, just as we did for the 2009 timeline ... which was also non-negotiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    But the mission was never about 100% rooting out terrorism. Such a thing is impossible to do. Rather the mission was about seriously handicapping the terrorists. If the Canadian troops continue to kick their asses up til 2011, then Canada would probably not have to deal with terrorist threats emanating from Afghanistan until 2020.
    I'll trust Rick's eval on this.
    Chimo

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    Senior Contributor smilingassassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Can you name a single war in the history of mankind that has gone on forever? Just because a war ends eventually does not mean the participants of that war are weak.
    Wars go on untill the enemy gives up or we do. Apparently You think we should give up first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Well, very soon we will be back in power and then you will see the difference in good governance that we bring. Sometimes only by contrast can one understand a difference.

    Election 08 - Vote Stephane Dion !!!!!!!!!
    Never going to happen as long as Mr. bungles is the leader of the Liberals. The Liberals will proceed to once again relegate our military to a bunch of boy scouts round a camp fire with no where to go and allow our military equipment to further degrade into obsolecence.
    A while back I remember stating Dion has even less charm that Harper. Apparently he also, like many other liberals lacks a spine, common sence and a sence of duty to international commitments. With the Liberals in power we might as well just throw out any and all agreements we have made with freinds and allies.

    Our military has always been on the bottom rung of spending but under the Liberals it was a disgrace. I re-iterate, there is no way in hell the Liberals will get into power again as long as flip flopping flounder Dion is in charge of the Liberals, and at the moment he's the best they have, which speaks volumes....

    ...and another thing how can you be proud to be a member of the Liberals. Thats like being a proud successor of Chamberland.
    Last edited by smilingassassin; 24 Feb 08, at 01:25.
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    Liberals are Serious About Stopping Terrorism!

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You're joking, right? Dion is the one who flinch. What's that line that he will never tolerate a combat mission past Feb 2009.
    That was before the John Manly Report had come out. He is a well educated great former Deputy Prime Minister. When he said the mission should go on past 2009, the Liberals listened to that. That's what responsible opposition parties do.
    Quote Originally Posted by smilingassassin View Post
    Wars go on untill the enemy gives up or we do. Apparently You think we should give up first.
    You discount the possibility that the Canadians and their Allies will win before 2011 (and by doing so you show your real your confidence in the mission)
    Quote Originally Posted by smilingassassin View Post
    Never going to happen as long as Mr. bungles is the leader of the Liberals.
    Really? Recent polls have the Liberals ahead nationally. Are you serious about debating the real facts or not? The best thing Conservatives have going for them is that at this point in time the Liberals don't have enough support to form a majority (stop smiling, neither does Stephen Harper).
    Quote Originally Posted by smilingassassin View Post
    The Liberals will proceed to once again relegate our military to a bunch of boy scouts round a camp fire with no where to go and allow our military equipment to further degrade into obsolecence.
    Again, let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story. Who sent Canadian troops to Afghanistan in the first place? Here is a hint, it wasn't the current Conservative government!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    That was before the John Manly Report had come out. He is a well educated great former Deputy Prime Minister. When he said the mission should go on past 2009, the Liberals listened to that. That's what responsible opposition parties do.
    Excuse me? I challenge you! Right now. What is in the Manley report that Generals Hillier, Cameron, Caron, MacKenzie, Leslie, Fraser have not been saying for YEARS! So, you're telling me that your own leader refuses to listen to professionals, people who swore their oaths to this country, bled for this country, lost people for this country, took responsibility for this country, live up to the word of this country .. BUT he will listen to a guy on THE PAYROLL of the Liberal Party who was in Afghanistan of a matter of weeks?

    I want to vomit right now!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Again, let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story. Who sent Canadian troops to Afghanistan in the first place? Here is a hint, it wasn't the current Conservative government!
    Which time?

    The 1st time when Chretien could not get an European Invite ... or the 2nd time when we embarrassed ourselves over Iraq?
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 24 Feb 08, at 04:48.
    Chimo

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