Thread: Pakistan bombs rebel bases

Originally Posted by Ray

Asim,

It does not matter how many PDFs are there.

Yours is the best, where one can debate without the Mullahs not slitting the throat. Not too many of them there because to a great extent the Mod team (well, most) are cyber battle scarred and so very matured and want it to be an interesting forum!

I won't mince word in appreciation, but a Pak forum that has so many Indian posters still going strong does you and your folks credit.

If it is not "arrogant" of me, may I offer my compliments and felicitations to you and your team on this auspicious occasion of Eid!

Kudos to you and Neo and whoever up there!

However, Pakistan having many forums does in no way indicates maturity and sanity!

In that cyberspace, your PDF is the sole one that can take the credit of being worth of an international cyber site!

Sir

Even defence.pk is full of "dont ya dare insult Pak" bijness.

Also, please check forums.pakmilitary.net - it seems to be a much more liberal place with the usual suspects!

You'll know who once you visit there!!

The Pakistani Army surrender is not a new thing. It's happened on many occassions before. There was a stamp on 'Prisoners of conscience' when 90,000 POWs or rather the entire Army in the East surrendered to India. They spent 2 years making roads in India. Musharaff when he led Kargil operations did'nt collect dead bodies of Pakistani servicemen from the NLI. Not only that they disgraced the bodies by booby trapping them. Indian Army soldiers gave decent burials to many such enemy soldiers.

The Pakistani problem is one of training. They put religion way above. So it's acceptable for a Colonel to relax with a major on a chair instead of ordering his men to clear a road block. I've sailed with Pakistani's in the marine. Last i sailed with some was for an Indian employer based in Singapore. He employs some Pakistani's. They are quite professionally incompetent. They put religion way above the profession. Engineering work they are incompetent, and do not have adequate knowledge, training and resources to match up with other nationalities in competency.

Slipping professional standards are a function of religious extremism in Pakistan. If it reflected in 1971 and 2007 it is no surprise. Pakistan will have to review it's society. Americans are just waking up. We know whats on for decades. US must change, Pakistan must. No doubt about it.

As for PDF: I went through it. They call Indians Bhangees, rats, gutter snipes, monkey worshippers, urge naive well wishing young Indians who think it's ok to engage to screw off in the most vile manner i have ever seen. This is a nation close to total failure. And some esteemed members here say it's the best forum for debate. Even BRF i have observed Pakistan is more an object of parody that too in very specific threads.

So this surrender has been going on for long in Pakistani Army tradition. Morever the Pakistani Army has'nt been trained in CI. It's been trained in I. Insurgency. So they really don't have much of a handle on how to act on it. Creating Insurgency is a different ball game from countering it.

Originally Posted by Archer

Sir

Even defence.pk is full of "dont ya dare insult Pak" bijness.

Also, please check forums.pakmilitary.net - it seems to be a much more liberal place with the usual suspects!

You'll know who once you visit there!!

It appears that it is Pakistan Aviation.

Did I get the right forum?

As for PDF: I went through it. They call Indians Bhangees, rats, gutter snipes, monkey worshippers, urge naive well wishing young Indians who think it's ok to engage to screw off in the most vile manner i have ever seen. This is a nation close to total failure. And some esteemed members here say it's the best forum for debate. Even BRF i have observed Pakistan is more an object of parody that too in very specific threads.

It should not upset if Indians are called by the vilest epithets.

One must understand that the weak and frustrated are the ones who require to use abusive language to release their frustration since they are total failures in achieving dreams!

The UK had an officer like that Colonel , only he was a General ,,,, Percival , in Singapore , the biggest capitulation in UK memory , old Winny was well p,issed off

Ray Sir,

forums.pakmilitary.net/

I havent spent much time on it to be honest, nor am I a member, but it seemed to be a much more humourous place than the dry defence.pk site and the abuse ridden PDF.

Dilawar,

Re: PDF

They are beneath contempt, and for all those who glorify fundamentalist Islam and claim that it treats others with respect, a visit to PDF is most educative.

Originally Posted by tankie

The UK had an officer like that Colonel , only he was a General ,,,, Percival , in Singapore , the biggest capitulation in UK memory , old Winny was well p,issed off

The Pakistani problem is that their officers are too used to running the country as politicians and administrators, to bother training as soldiers, or even behaving as such.

They have outsourced the entire war on India to the Kashmiri jihadis, the war on ISAF in Afghanistan to the Taliban, and now that they are having to fight the Taliban, its become a problem.

Originally Posted by Archer

The Pakistani problem is that their officers are too used to running the country as politicians and administrators, to bother training as soldiers, or even behaving as such.

They have outsourced the entire war on India to the Kashmiri jihadis, the war on ISAF in Afghanistan to the Taliban, and now that they are having to fight the Taliban, its become a problem.

So aptly described!

Check this out:

United Afghanistan Islamic Emirates

Love them or loath them Gentlemen I'd ask that you not be too disrespectful of other forums, we don't want an inter-forum war developing.

Why, is this forum chicken?

Defence.pk or PFF on CNN!!!

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Democratic dream and crisis of the state



Khaled Ahmed
While patriotic Pakistanis defiantly oppose the label of 'failed state', there are signs of intervention that we can hardly ignore. Drones flown from the US have been attacking suspected Al Qaeda hideouts inside Pakistani territory



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adjust Font Size

Pakistan is postponing a consensus on what the world now increasingly regards as crisis of the state. When a state is in crisis, it loses control of governance over a large part of the land within its boundaries. When this lack of control worsens and the state cannot re-establish its outreach, areas without control are ‘lost’ to someone else. In Pakistan, loss of territory is now more or less acknowledged. The next phase of acknowledgement has yet to come: that territory has been lost to someone who wants to create another state at the expense of Pakistan’s territorial integrity.


Obsession of the eastward focus: Pakistan has traditionally focused eastwards because it feared ‘relapse’ of territory in the east to India out of which Pakistan was carved. In fact, Pakistan planned to increase its territory at the expense of India by annexing Muslim-majority Kashmir. Its nationalism was based on this ambition. Since Pakistan was a religious state, India was easily seen as a Hindu state nursing unworthy thoughts of reabsorbing Pakistani territory. All that changed on the ground – not in the mind – after the defeat suffered by Pakistan army’s pursuit of ‘strategic depth’ in Afghanistan.


The state of Pakistan, its mind foreshortened by its preoccupation with India, thought very little about its westward defence. As I said before, the eastern threat forPakistan is a Trojan horse and the real threat is to it's west. Thankfully for us, the Ghazis are too stupid to realize this Afghanistan was Muslim unlike Hindu India and was too weak to challenge Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan thought it could walk into Afghanistan and put up a puppet regime in Kabul who would give it the territorial space it needed to place its nuclear assets there, safe from India’s military outreach. The defeat that came in the shape of 9/11 has changed facts on the ground. Territory is being lost to Muslim warriors who have better Islamic credentials than the state in Pakistan. That is why it is difficult for the mind of the state to formulate a new threat perception.


Al Qaeda looking for state of its own: Loss of territory to the likes of Baitullah Mehsud and Fazlullah means a chunk of Pakistan from where attacks are being launched into nextdoor Afghanistan under occupation of troops sent in under a Chapter Seven UN Security Council Resolution 1373. Pakistan has received complaints from the NATO-ISAF forces about these attacks and has reacted in a variety of ways: by denying the presence of the Taliban who attack across the border, or by counter-attacking the Kabul government and accusing it of all sorts of evil designs, including getting together with India to destabilise Pakistan. Much of the Pakistani official stance has been rejected internationally on the basis of eyewitness accounts by journalists. Consequently, the anti-Pakistan opinion abroad has become strengthened.


That Al Qaeda is in search of a state of its own is known to the world. The last time it tried to gain a foothold inside a state was in Somalia in 2006. The sharia there was of the Arab variety and very close to what the Taliban want. The Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), dispensing a wide variety of adjudication based on contradictory but legitimate sources of jurisprudence, set up its own legally fractured government, only to arouse alarm in the neighbourhood. The United States got ‘Christian’ Ethiopia to invade Somalia and put the Islamic warriors – some of them hailing from Pakistan – to flight. The case of Pakistan will greatly differ in detail but the general drift is the same. An invasion will target the ‘lost territories’ as the Pakistan army watches.


New jurisprudence of legitimate intervention: A number of ‘failing’ states in the Horn of Africa are now allowing international law to develop in favour of invited and uninvited intervention, some of it illegal and some – that organised by the Organisation of African Union – legal. In the case of Pakistan, while patriotic Pakistanis defiantly oppose the label of ‘failed state’, there are signs of intervention that we can hardly ignore. Drones flown from the US have been attacking suspected Al Qaeda hideouts inside Pakistani territory. Latest reports from North Waziristan speak of drones overflying territory that is virtually lost to Pakistan. The little-discussed legal ground is ‘hot pursuit’ because Pakistan is in no position to stop Al Qaeda and its Pakistani warriors from attacking as far inland in Afghanistan as Helmand and Herat.


The latest development in this direction of invited or uninvited ‘intervention-in-failed-state’ development has come in the shape of the ‘offer’ of US forces ‘to fight the Taliban elements in the Tribal Areas and Swat’ by the US Central Command (Centcom) chief, Admiral William J Fallon, to President Pervez Musharraf. It is quite clear what direction the national crisis is taking. The central crisis is not democracy and civil-military relations, but the survival of the state and, ironically, within the consensus that wishes to ignore the state are also those who actually want the federation to come to an end. The crisis of the state is unfortunately viewed as an upsurge of the democratic spirit that will satisfy the separatist demands in the NWFP, Sindh and Balochistan.


The nation agrees on nothing: If the state collapses, the sub-nationalists will all get their rights. The NWFP will repossess its hydroelectric assets that it can earn rental from; Balochistan will repossess its gas reserves and get rich by selling them at the global market, and Sindh will take its rightful cut from the revenues accruing from its industrial base and its ports. That leaves Punjab as the rump that will be forced to look towards India differently.Kulsum Nawaz, Sheikh Rashid, and now Ayaz Amir



The crisis of the state of Pakistan hinges on an increasing lack of national consensus over the federation. The Constitution is under rejection in various ways depending on who is looking at it. And there is foreign invasion by Al Qaeda that looks like internal reform aimed at fulfilling the Islamic dream.


It appears that the nation agrees on nothing. After General Zia enforced shariat by amending the Constitution and installing the Federal Shariat Court, the clergy immediately put forward its own Shariat Bill. The ulema did not agree with Zia’s Constitution, nor did the minorities and the women because it curtailed their rights. The provinces did not agree because it did not give them the rights that they should have got under proper devolution. The political parties did not agree because it contained Article 58(2)(b). The crisis of the state was internal as the cement holding the federation together was falling off like bad plaster. But the state thought it could ride it out by acquiring a nuclear bomb.


Is life over for the state? Yes, if the politically active communities don’t see the present crisis as the crisis of the state and keep spending their rage on those whom they see as impeding democracy and pushing the ‘American agenda’.

From Friday Times of Pakistan.

A very interesting commentary on what is Pakistan!

Any comments?

It is impossible to understand any rational reason for the incredible hatred and arrogance many of the Pakistanis have. A visit to the faithunity site did help explain matters a bit. But still...