Thread: Afghanistan: The Turkish advantage

Originally Posted by cato

Big K,
Your English is just fine, Big K, and thanks for clarifying. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You postulate that an Anatolian Turk (not a city-boy from Istanbul) has a greater cultural affinity for an Afghan because of similar societal mores that exist in rural turkey. You also state that because of a distant Turkic heritage shared by maybe three of the variated ethinc groups, there is a kind of bonhommie between the Turks and the populace at large. If I have misinterpreted your thoughts, I appologise. I simply disagree. These things may gain you some headway with the Uzbeks, possibly the Hazara and maybe, just maybe some of the Tajiks. With the majority of the populace (Pathan) a Turk is just another foreigner without a beard.

As to the Turkish Army's suitability as peacekeapers in rough parts of the world, I'd say it has to do more with the quality of the Turkish soldiers, rather than any sort of cultural or religeous affinity. I'd say, yeah, the Turks do share common cultural and religeous heritage with the Albanians. It was, after all, the Ottoman Empire that conquered and converted Albania to Islam. As for the Turks being suitable on the ground in Lebanon? Well, if I remember, you guys weren't exactly given a warm send-off the last time you had soldiers in Arab lands. They have long memories down there. Somalia? Hell,I'd love to see Turkey give it a shot. Maybe Mehmet the Great, or Selim could bring order to the place, but again, Turks would just be another foreigner to be shot at.
Thanks,
Cato

oh my friend dont take me wrong, i dont say that we are the ultimate pacesetters or some other supernatural beings. just like you sad, for the terrorists a Turkish soldier is another foreigner to be shot at. i am agree at this point.

all the advantage that we are talking about is a slight one.

i think i have not been able to explain this:

"i dont know how to explain this in English but theres a word in Turkish: Racon=
the accepted way of doing sth. this is one of the most important thing in Turkey too.

our soldiers know whats "racon" and are sensible about local customs, local sensivities..

for exemple in Turkey with only one little look to a "wrong" place in a "wrong" time, you can cause a fight.

thats not because we are untolerant people but theres some sensivities, ethichs, morals, local unwritten laws etc.

you have to respect these.

westerners can not do this even with their most ambitious effort.

but we can..."


on the other hand, Tajiks have great Turkic roots and also Persian roots if i am not wrong...

Tajikistan is a Turkic Republic in which you can talk Turkish (a little bit different) in fact from Turkey to China (even in the Chinese Uyghur region) you can go and speak Turkish, you dont need another language...

first of all what i try to say is;

Classing and trying to understand peoples affinities with these criterias of their religion or ethnicities or cultural heritage or historical relations etc..., taking these criterias one by one will misguide us.

we have to take all of these criterias as a cumulative thing.

in the history Turks were there, Turks lived there, Turks ruled there, Turks have a strong organic and social relation heritage,

we are familiar there,

Maybe because of these statements they will be more tolerent to Turkish soldiers.

i think maybe Afghan People is expecting MORE from a Turkish Command and soldiers.

but what i say is for normal people of Afghanistan.

For a terrorist there will be no difference between a English or Turkish Troop.

by the way according wikipedia(english version which i ve gave a link in some posts before) Pathans have strong Turkic roots?? i have to work on it...

for the sending troops to the Lebanon issue,

it was not because of the memories, it was because of the dislike of the people against western allies.

people in Turkey have lost their confidence on UN and USA...

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/cur...y-explain.html

because of things like that.

Originally Posted by Big K

infact if you look at the Turkic History you can see many old states founded in that area so even with Pashtuns we have great historical connections, the others are already Turkic(tajiks, Hazara etc...)

Sorry but you're wrong. Tajiks and Hazaras are not 'Turkic'. Hazaras are Mongols that are linguistically Persianized. Tajiks on the other hand are historically Persian/Iranian. The term Tajik itself was coined for the Iranian populations of Central Asia to distinguish them from the Turks.

Linguistic research on Hazaragi, the language and dialect of the Hazaras, has concentrated on two aspects. First, the relation between Hazaragi and the major languages that have influenced Hazaragi, such as Farsi, Mogholi, and Turkish, and the extent of the influence of each of these on Hazaragi; and second, the particular characteristics and origin of Hazaragi itself. What research has so far revealed is that Hazaragi is a mixed dialect of Farsi, moghol and Turkish, with its own oral but not written tradition. No books have ever been written in Hazaragi; Hazara intellectuals, scholars and writers have always written in Farsi or Arabic, and more recently in European languages, but never Hazaragi. From a linguistic point of view, dialect is a more accurate name for Hazaragi than language.

On the basis of what has been said in the previous sections, it can therefore be concluded that the Hazaras, like the other peoples of Afghanistan, are: a) one of the oldest inhabitants of the region, and are b) of a mixture of races and ethnic groups, of which Changiz Khan and Amir Timur’s Moghol soldiers are but one, and c) whose main influence has been on the tribal and linguistic structure of the Hazaras (in the same as the influence of the Arabs has been on their religious structure, and of Farsi on their culture). Further, this Turkic influence is not restricted to the period only of the Moghol invasion, but also to much longer periods of Turkish incursion and settlement in the region of peoples such as: the Gharj, Ghaz and the Ghouris, who established, respectively , the Gharjistan, Ghaznavi and Ghuri dynasties in Central Afghanistan; and the Ephthalites, the pre-Islamic inhabitants of the area.

However, in the most recent past, the ethno-tribal mixture of the Hazaras with others can be described as follows:

Moghol influence on the Hazaras is undeniable. Given the recurrent attacks by Moghol soldiers on the area, and the ensuing settlement amongst, and contact with, the people of this area of Central Asia, it is inevitable that the Moghols must have played a formative role in the culture and development of the Hazara people. These soldiers first spoke only Moghol and their influence on the language of the Hazaras was very distinct, even up until the beginning of this century, and can be seen in many Farsi writings by Hazaras; today more than 10 percent of Mogholi terms are still used by the Hazaras. The Hazaras are also of Moghol physical appearance. Furthermore, the Hazaras are partly descended from relatives of Moghol warriors, serfs, and descendants of Moghol feudal lords, themselves related to Changiz’z commanders. To this day, many Hazara tribal and family names are taken from Moghol leaders and commanders, for example: one Hazara group is named “Day Choupan”, after one of the landlords close to Abu Sa’id, known as ‘Amir Choupan’, who led his army into eastern Khorasan and settled there (eastern Khorasan possibly referring to the area known today as Orozgan) (Temirkhanov, 1980:19; Orazgani, 1913:29).

During the 19th century, R. Leech, the English traveler who met the “Day Chopan” Hazaras, was taken by them to Gereshk, a nearby town, to visit the tomb of Amir Chopan, whom they regarded as having first brought their ancestors to the area (1845:333). The Behsudis, another major Hazara tribe, are named after Behsud or Bisud, one of Changiz’z relatives, also known as Jigou Hakou (Faiz, 1912, vol.3:887;Orazgani, 1913:56).

Tajik influence on the Hazaras is also undeniable, for the Tajiks were the previous inhabitants of Afghanistan, and Farsi was their language. Many Tajiks still live amongst or in close proximity to the Hazaras; in Ghazni, Bamyan and Panjshir, Tajiks and Hazaras live amongst one another. This peaceful co-existence has, over the centuries, resulted in the penetration of the Farsi language and culture amongst the Hazaras. The Hazaras have also taken up farming, cattle breeding, and other skills from the Tajiks. Indeed, Farsi culture has played a fundamental role in the formation of the Hazara people. Hazara Khans built durbars or dewans(courts) resembling Persian palaces, and adopted education techniques from them; classical Farsi writings such as the Ferdausi’s Shah Nama, and poetical collections by Hafez and Sa’di, are perhaps studied with more fervor by them than by many other Farsi speakers (Temirkanov, 1980:25). Intermarriage with Tajiks is still more common than with any other people, followed by intermarriage with Uzbacks.

Turkish influence on the Hazaras dates back to the incursions of Amir Timur and his army into this area. As mentioned before, the inhabitants of Jaghouri regard themselves as being descended from Amir Timur, while the Sheikh Ali Hazaras believe themselves to be of Turkish ancestry, most probably of the Khalaj and Qarloq Turks. Along the main road through the Sheikh Ali area and near Qalloq, there is a tomb in honor of Baba Qallogh, regarded by the Sheikh Ali people to have been their forefather. In the travelogues of Oghouz, the original ancestor of the Moghols, the people of this area are referred to as Qarloq, meaning the “children of snow”, because of its cold climate (ibid:23). The common Turkish root of these names, Qarloq, Qalloq and Qallogh, indicative of Turkish influence on the Hazaras. Indeed more Turkish terms can be found in Hazargi dialect than in Farsi, in particular amongst the names of herbs and roots, which are virtually all Turkish.

The Afghans(Pashtuns), neighboring the Hazaras on the East, have also had their impact on the Hazaras. Abdali, the name of one of the major Pashtun tribes of Qandahar, also refers to one of the Hazara tribes of Behsud: the Abdal. Similarly, the Hazaras of Gonbad end their names In zai, used by Pashtuns meaning ‘son of’, such as Dawzai and Mohammadzai of the Dai Choupan tribes. Pashto is also the name of a sub-section of the Polada [Foladi] Hazara (Adamec, 1995, vol.6:648), while the Pashayes or Pashai are also a sub-section of the Jaghouri Hazaras. The Pashtun nomads were also the first people in modern times to enter Hazaristan, with the permission of the central government in Kabul, in order to take up trade with the Hazaras. While this development was to bring about the destruction of existing economic, social and political relations amongst the Hazaras, it nevertheless opened up the closed trading and barter economy, and the generally feudal socio-economic system of the Hazaras.

Cultural amalgamation with Uzbacks has taken place as a result of the undefined nature of the boundaries separating the Hazara areas from Uzbak areas; this has led to the predominance of inter-marriage between the two nations, which explains the similarity of appearance between the two groups. Relations with the Uzbaks have been at times both peaceful and bloody. In more recent times, intermarriage between different peoples living in the same area has been a common phenomenon, encouraged in order to establish peaceful co-existence; this has been particularly the case between the Hazaras and other peoples of Northern Afghanistan, and the Baluchis of Quetta, Pakistan. During the first half of the 19th century, fusion took place as a result of inter-tribal feuds. While this was the case between all tribes in Afghanistan, it was particularly frequent between the Uzbaks and the Hazaras. After defeat, the victorious tribe always took slaves. These were sold at slave markets such as the one in Kunduz, and sent to India for trading, or exchanged for Tatar horses, or used as farming labour and servants in the houses of Khans (Harlan, 1939:82, 83, 126, 127).

Fusion has also taken place between Hazaras and Arab Shia Sayyeds considered to be descendants of Imam Ali, himself related to the prophet by marriage to Fatima, the prophet’s daughter. While marriage between Sayyed women and Hazara men is rare, inter-marriage with Hazara women is very common; hence, the existence of Sayyeds with Hazara features, referred to as Hazara Sayyeds.


Askar Musawi, "The Hazarahs of Afghanistan"