Bush to veto timetable bill, surpise!

**Garry** · 14 May 07,, 12:12

Originally Posted by Shek

Garry,

Americans may have conflated 9/11 and Iraq, but the war wasn't based on 9/11. Sorry, I paid attention to the build up to the war, and other than the Atta - Prague link which was never sold as a definite contact in my mind, there was no Saddam supported 9/11 case being made.

Instead, it was built upon the WMD that Saddam possessed and never accounted for, resulting in over a dozen UN resolutions, blah, blah, blah.

Now, the case for the war was seen through the lens of 9/11, but this is different than it being built upon 9/11. Feel free to conflate this if you like, as many Americans did, but that doesn't make it correct.

Hi Shek, for me it is not important to prove that they were selling it wrong... what statements were made.... and which were then drawn back later. The blaiming game will go on now with or without our will.

The problem is that it was BOUGHT on wrong arguments... Many really were relating Iraq to 9/11 and WMD.... and that is why it is harder to sell support to the operation now when those arguments turned wrong.

I am trying to understand now - IF AMERICANS WILL STAY.... or if they would leave..... Unfortunatelly, the problems with initial pre-war campaign is that it makes very hard to gain support now and that is why probability of early leave is rather high => The international fundamentalist community you are facing now would search for new playgrounds (probably start from Afghanistan/Pakistan).

The operation needs domestic support.... as it would be a lot of PR strickes from insurgents before situation gets stable... when nation is united it can withstand much more.... however when it is divided over the basic question - Why we are there? PR war from insurgents may be effective.

ps. How is situation in Bagdad? Do you estimate that enforcements would be capable to stabilize situation in a year?

**dalem** · 14 May 07,, 17:21

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

From Report Number 07-INTEL-04, dated February 9, 2007, "Review of the Pre-Iraqi War Activities of the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy", by acting Inspector General Thomas F. Gimble, US Department of Defense, Appendix G, page 35 :

(bold emphasis mine)

Roll your eyes all you want, there was a relationship, and Saddam's son pursued it. The Project Harmony documents show at least that much, but it doesn't look like it ever got beyond the initial stages.

-dale

**dalem** · 14 May 07,, 17:30

Originally Posted by Garry

Dale, we can fall into long dispute... Bush told a lot of lies about WMD/ A-Q ties with Iraq etc... his people too.

Lies? List them.

Americans were sold war based on 9/11 which had NOTHING to do with that.

Nope. 9/11 was never connected to Iraq. If you're going to continue to believe that, or if Shipwreck is going to keep linking to old Safire articles, I can't help you.

And they bought it thinking that they respond to 9/11. No they come to understanding that they were WRONG..... and that is why public support is going away....

Nope. You are repeating myth. The war was about a lot of things, and was sold on the basis of a lot of things, but 9/11 wasn't one of them.

This is reality....

Answer just one question - DO YOU THINK THAT WAR IN IRAQ WAS POSSIBLE WITHOUT 9/11? DO YOU THINK PEOPLE KNEW THAT SADDAM IS NOT LINKED IN 2003?

That's two questions.

1) Attacking Iraq without 9/11? MUCH harder. I think it's extremely unlikely that it could have happened without the overarching doctrine of going after rogue states who support international terrorism. 9/11 was the punch in the nose that showed the American people that we had been at war for years.

2) In 2003 plenty of people knew plenty of things. So what? Congress knew what the justification was about, and none of the justifications have anything to do with 9/11.

If you come to the same answers as I did you will know what I think

No doubt.

-dale

**~~Shipwreck~~** · 14 May 07,, 18:24

Originally Posted by dalem

Roll your eyes all you want, there was a relationship,

Did anyone say there wasn't a *relationship* ?

I was under the impression that what was being said was that "sporadic contacts, however, hardly amount to a 'mature', let alone 'symbiotic relationship'." (Report Number 07-INTEL-04).

**~~Shipwreck~~** · 14 May 07,, 18:31

Originally Posted by dalem

9/11 was never connected to Iraq. If you're going to continue to believe that, or if Shipwreck is going to keep linking to old Safire articles, I can't help you.

And Perle, and Feith, and Wolfowitz,...

If you're going to continue to peremptorily claim that *No one ever linked Saddam to 9/11* (post #31) or that *No link was made connecting Iraq to 9/11* (post #50), I can't help you.

**dalem** · 14 May 07,, 19:29

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

And Perle, and Feith, and Wolfowitz,...

If you're going to continue to peremptorily claim that *No one ever linked Saddam to 9/11* (post #31) or that *No link was made connecting Iraq to 9/11* (post #50), I can't help you.

So when did the executive stand in front of the American people and make the connection? The best anyone in your camp has ever been able to give me in the last few years is the Cheney interview.

-dale

**~~Shipwreck~~** · 14 May 07,, 20:11

Originally Posted by dalem

So when did the executive stand in front of the American people and make the connection? The best anyone in your camp has ever been able to give me in the last few years is the Cheney interview.

Cheney is not high enough in the food chain for you ?

**Bluesman** · 15 May 07,, 02:42

LOVE the eye-rolling smiley. Proves your point every time you use it. QED - an argument-winner that shuts down any comeback, obviates any answer. The advocate's nuclear weapon.

So dam' LOGICAL.

You're simply awesome in a debate, man. You must be a master debater.

**dalem** · 15 May 07,, 04:50

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Cheney is not high enough in the food chain for you ?

Only because it's a poor support for your position. At BEST an exercise in semantic jerking off.

-dale

**JOgershok** · 04 Jan 09,, 00:56

Originally Posted by dalem

Roll your eyes all you want, there was a relationship, and Saddam's son pursued it. The Project Harmony documents show at least that much, but it doesn't look like it ever got beyond the initial stages.

-dale

Canada, just last year, purchased the "yellowcake" from Iraq that was left over from Saddam's great adventure.

U.S. removes 'yellowcake' from Iraq - Conflict in Iraq- msnb...
Jul 5, 2008 ... The Iraqi government sold the yellowcake to a Canadian uranium producer, Cameco Corp., in a transaction the official described as worth ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

» “Non existant” Yellowcake Uranium Moved From Iraq to Canad...
over 500 tons of the Iraqi yellow cake were just sold to Canada recently and shipped from Iraq. “Non existant” Yellowcake Uranium Moved From Iraq to Canada ...
www.bloggernews.net/116579

Iraq's Yellowcake - July 7, 2008 - The New York Sun
Jul 7, 2008 ... Iraq's Yellowcake - July 7, 2008 - The New York Sun. ... uranium worth tens of millions of dollars were shipped out of Iraq to Canada. ...
http://www.nysun.com/editorials/iraqs-yellowcake/81328/

**Herodotus** · 04 Jan 09,, 03:25

Originally Posted by JOgershok

Canada, just last year, purchased the "yellowcake" from Iraq that was left over from Saddam's great adventure.

U.S. removes 'yellowcake' from Iraq - Conflict in Iraq- msnb...
Jul 5, 2008 ... The Iraqi government sold the yellowcake to a Canadian uranium producer, Cameco Corp., in a transaction the official described as worth ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

» “Non existant” Yellowcake Uranium Moved From Iraq to Canad...
over 500 tons of the Iraqi yellow cake were just sold to Canada recently and shipped from Iraq. “Non existant” Yellowcake Uranium Moved From Iraq to Canada ...
www.bloggernews.net/116579

Iraq's Yellowcake - July 7, 2008 - The New York Sun
Jul 7, 2008 ... Iraq's Yellowcake - July 7, 2008 - The New York Sun. ... uranium worth tens of millions of dollars were shipped out of Iraq to Canada. ...
http://www.nysun.com/editorials/iraqs-yellowcake/81328/

The yellowcake was known to exist and was tagged and inspected by the IAEA every year. All very old news, so I don't know what your point is in resurrecting a one and a half year old thread.