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Thread: Why we must never abandon this historic struggle in Iraq

  1. #16
    Ray
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    Unless Praxus and his ilk shed their 'untermenschen' attitude, thig will become difficult and they might find the same fate as Hitler.

    Google and check the number of Black Moslems in the US and their increasing tribe. The neo Moslems are more dangerous than the actual ancient ones.

    We have such types in my country. Wake up! In my country there is a saying which says - a new Moslem say
    Allah Allah a litle too much to prove his loyalty to the faith!

    Watch out. You are releasing a genie from the bottle!

    We are all equal and treat all so and have Peace.

    Praxus have you been on the wrong end of a scimitar? No? Don't worry it is not too far if you don't chnage your mindset and try to being sanity and not hatred. Moslems are not vermin. they require Christian love.

    Lt me gove you an e mail I recieved. it speaks volumes.

    ************************************************
    Allah or Jesus?

    > By Rick Mathes
    >
    > Last month I attended my annual training session that's required
    >for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training
    >session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the
    >Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of
    >their belief systems.
    >
    > I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.
    >The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete
    >with a video.
    >
    > After the presentations, time was provided for questions and
    >answers.
    >
    > When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and
    >asked:
    >
    > "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams
    >and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the
    >infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a
    >command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in
    > heaven.
    >
    > If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"
    >
    > There was no disagreement with my statements and, without
    >hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"
    >
    > I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All
    >followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of
    >your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"
    >
    > The expression on his face changed from one of authority and
    >command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his
    >hand in the cookie jar.
    >
    > He sheepishly replied, "Yes."
    >
    > I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine
    >Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or
    >Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to
    >Heaven!"
    >
    > The Imam was speechless.
    >
    > I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you
    >and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me
    >ask you a question.
    >
    > Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order
    >to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going
    >to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"
    >
    > You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.
    >
    > Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the
    >'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of
    >dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's
    >beliefs.
    >
    > I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but
    >with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is
    >no way this will be widely publicized.
    > Please pass this on to all your email contacts.
    >
    > This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well known
    >leader in prison ministry.
    >
    > Have a good day.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  2. #17
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    Sir,

    I am reminded of a quote Ogadi (Mongol Ruler) when he was called an Infidel by an Iman (cannot recall his name). The Mongols were not Moslems at the time.

    "I am the wrath of God. Tremble before me."

  3. #18
    Ray
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    Colonel,

    I ddn't get your last post. I am what is called a PBI = poor bloody infantryer. You engineers are ducated and cleverer.

    Therefore, do let me know what is the difference between Praxus and the Hutus, who massacred the population, since you know of Rwanda much more than me.

    The Tutsi were killed without remorse (saw the skulls on display?) and Praxus advocate the same philosophy. He and Hitler have the same genes or so it appears.

    Not even the sane Islamist like Vision (if Ironman right) would do so. Praxus is doing a terriffic disservice to the Faith, iof indeed he is Christian. I think he is pagan. He could be a fifth columnist of a wierd fatith that is still not recognised!

    I feel so disappointed that sanity is being lost and religious crap is taking precendence. Who has seen God? Who has seen Heaven? Only those on LSD and drug have or so they claim. I haven't seen. Has anyone on the WAB seen?

    Those who have seen it, can't they take off there and leave us in peace to go to Hell? I am so tired with all this 'visions' and It forces me to say as a rationalist that let me go anyhwere in my afterlife , but while I live in what others may feel is a horrible world, let me live in PEACE. Cut he claptrap.

    I will cross the Bridge to Heaven or Hell when it comes.
    Last edited by Ray; 12 Apr 04, at 08:16.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  4. #19
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    Sir,

    The quote refers to the greatest threat Islam has ever faced in its history and it was not the Christian West but Heathen East - the Mongol Empire. Islam took comfort that what little defence they put up would lead them to heaven. What scared the hell out of them was that the Mongols couldn't care less. From Mongol History, Ogadi was told that he would goto hell (along those lines) for being an infidel. His response was along the lines of "You idiot. I am God's Hand in smiting you" which means if God allows Ogadi to kill Islam, what makes them think that they would goto heaven?

    And the fact that the Mongol didn't care about debate but just go on butchering make them pretty believable. Islam was never shaken to the core than by the Mongols.

    Praxus is convinced by his position. Rwanda was controlled by the mob mentallity. Praxus position is somewhat better. You can change your beliefs. You cannot change your birth (ie whether you're borned Hutu or Tutsi). The main significant difference is that Praxus is asking us to do the work while the Rwandans were goaded into the slaughter house (both the victims and the butchers). As I stated before, it's hard to imagine one pregnant teenage mother butchering another pregnant teenage mother without some co-ercion.

    The main difference between Rwanda and Praxus is that I am standing at the wall. I will not allow Praxus to do things that would hurt the honour, prestige, and the values of my country. I will allow him his say but I will not allow him to act. I will defend against enemies both foreign and domestic.

    Oh, I don't know if you heard this Murphy's Law (the bloke acreditted with the saying, "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.") for the military - "There's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole."

    One last thing, Sir. I strongly suspect that Praxus has yet to have a girl friend. Ever try telling a woman what to do? And I'm outnumbered two to one.

  5. #20
    Ray
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    Praxus,

    Since youa re realted to Hitler, I say Enjoy yourself.

    Colonel,

    What is th differnece tha Praxus is preachinga s the Hutus killing prgnant women?

    he has hate in his heart. Is that Christianity? He should go for a Confession if he is a Catholic or have a talk wih his priest if he something else.

    His heart is so full of hatred. His type scares me.

    I am no advocate of pure Islam that brooks no deviation from the word of the Prophet since it is antediluvian, buit then there is the type Visioninthe dark personifies. Infdels that Vsion maybe to Islam, let us help him and not shove him in the corner.

    Let us change this world (what little we may can) to make it loving and notwith hatred.

    Are you aware the Vision would be termed an infidel for his thoughts (I have not seen his posts but I take Iron man as corret) and yet he is bracing out for sanity? Are you aware that it is only what is written in the Islamic scriptures that alone is correct and NO DEVIATION IS ACCEPTABLE? I e mailed Vision's links about the 73 sects of Islam to a very fine and sane Muslim colleague of mine in the Army and he said it was all crap! Imagine him saying so, he is a dear friend of mine znd immensxely even handed. Come on. Praxus and you othe nuts, give the sane Moslems a chance. Taht is all I ask of you.

    They are also th creatioj of the SAME God, educate them rather than gettig them out of the loop!Wake up Pracus and other freaks.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
    Last edited by Ray; 12 Apr 04, at 08:45.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  6. #21
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    Originally posted by Ray
    Colonel,

    What is th differnece tha Praxus is preachinga s the Hutus killing prgnant women?
    Sir,

    Praxus has not killed and that is a world of difference in both his personal understanding and his own innocence/ignorance.

    Originally posted by Ray
    he has hate in his heart. Is that Christianity? He should go for a Confession if he is a Catholic or have a talk wih his priest if he something else.

    His heart is so full of hatred. His type scares me.
    Sir,

    He doesn't scare me half as much as thought police. While I don't agree with him, Praxus must be allowed to say all that he feels. At the very least, I know where he stands. If need be, I can stop him.

    Only God can directly change his heart. We mere mortals must contend with reason. We can do no more than that. Other than thought police which is against everything I've stood for.

    Originally posted by Ray
    Let us change this world (what little we may can) to make it loving and notwith hatred.
    We do, Sir. We stood the Wall against the Darkness and Against the Enemy who would do even the likes of Praxus harm, it was not on our watch.

    Originally posted by Ray
    Are you aware the Vision would be termed an infidel for his thoughts (I have not seen his posts but I take Iron man as corret) and yet he is bracing out for sanity? Are you aware that it is only what is written in the Islamic scriptures that alone is correct and NO DEVIATION IS ACCEPTABLE? I e mailed Vision's links about the 73 sects of Islam to a very fine and sane Muslim colleague of mine in the Army and he said it was all crap! Imagine him saying so, he is a dear friend of mine znd immensxely even handed. Come on. Praxus and you othe nuts, give the sane Moslems a chance. Taht is all I ask of you.

    They are also th creatioj of the SAME God, educate them rather than gettig them out of the loop!Wake up Pracus and other freaks.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
    God is the ultimate judge in these matters. He Alone will determine the rightous regardless of us mere mortals say otherwise.

  7. #22
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    If you want to actually read about what I believe in, look up Objecitvism. I am not a neo-fascist like you believe. My bad writing ability probley doesn't add to well to this perception.

    http://www.whatisobjectivism.com/explained/index.htm
    http://www.objectivistcenter.org/obj...bjectivism.asp
    http://www.americanwriters.org/archives/player/rand.asp

    I don't see how you view the idea of setting up a Constitutional Republic in Iraq that defends individual rights is a bad this?

    I just don't see how you can compare this with fascism?

    Then you go on to say they have a right to set up whatever Government they want, even if such Government destroys man's rights and kills thousands if not millions of people simply because they have a perceived right in your mind to choose whatever Government they want.

    In an Objectivist society, the initiation of force and fraud are completly banned. Which is the society I believe we should set up in our own country and in Iraq/Afgahnistan.

    I have nothing but utmost respect for you two, I do not call you a fascist, so please don't say it to me.

    Last edited by Praxus; 13 Apr 04, at 04:55.

  8. #23
    Ray
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    Praxus,

    OK. I am sorry to have called you a fascist. I didn't mean fascists in its wholity, it was just that .......

    (shake hands and lets down a beer together!)

    Added later...


    Praxus,

    Actually, I think you are a nice person but a wee bit with a quicksilver in your righteous condemnation of things that you perceive is wrong. I appreciate that.

    However, take a tip from an old man who has seen many winters. I had a quicksilver temper and my bosses never appreciated that even though they knew I was telling the correct thing. Now that I am retired, I realise it was a waste of time to fight the system. I should have tempered my arguments. Wopuld have still won and yet would not have made them feel out of place.

    Much that you have said are precisely what I would have like to have said. I said the same things as you (well most of it) but I rationalised.

    I too HATE the fundoos (we call the fundamentalists so). But I look at the poor chaps whoare caught in between the Devil and the Deep Sea. I would like to help them so that they become the majority.

    Let me assure you that I have many Moslem friends. They too ahte the fundoos who are giving them a bad name. But they are helpless since the religious books bind them to only along the straight and narrow. If they speak out, they will be socially and religiously boycotted. In the bargain they would be hated by their own and hated by us Therefore, we should help them. Encourage them so that they slowly influence their brethern to realise realitiy in a modern existenence and not live in the time of Noah!
    Last edited by Ray; 13 Apr 04, at 07:09.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  9. #24
    Jay
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    whoa....how come I missed these war of words :brick or is it faiths?
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Praxus
    [B]Then you go on to say they have a right to set up whatever Government they want, even if such Government destroys man's rights and kills thousands if not millions
    But isn't that what you are proposing? You have on several occaisions insisted that the west should impose its will on the region, its system of government and that those that disagree should be killed.

    [quote]
    of people simply because they have a perceived right in your mind to choose whatever Government they want.
    [/qoute]
    As you point out, it is all about perception. You perceive that you have a right to coerce the lives of others.

    In an Objectivist society, the initiation of force and fraud are completly banned. Which is the society I believe we should set up in our own country and in Iraq/Afgahnistan.
    But there is no point if that government has to use force to stay in power. Which is what is happening in Iraq / Afghanistan. Both countries are now desecnding into anarchy because there is a power vacuum. The western appointed leaderships have no legitimacy because the people cannot relate to them. This isn't Star Trek. Captain Kirk can't simply read out the US declaration of independance and have "aliens" suddenly change thousands of years of their lives.

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by Ray
    I think. Bush and his cronies had Praxus's mindset. They exepected flowers and garlands to greet.

    Initially it did. Then Paraxus's mindset took effect and it became a balls up.

    Enemity amongst the Moslem sects got united! You have to live amongst the Moslem to realise the divide amongst the Moslems i.e Shias and Sunnis. They are now thanking Praxus type of mindset for showing the way. Vison told me there are 73 Islamic sects and a Msolem friend told me that it is all balls. Islam cannot be reinterpreted beyond the scriptures unlike others. What the Prophet said is the last word.

    I am not a Moslem. I sure would Like Visioninthe dark to inform folks here of the dangers that are there in this type of action in Iraq since the Ironman has assured us that he is a sane voice. Vision bring in sanity. God said let there be light and there was light. So, show some light Vision even if you are not God!

    Don't underestimate the undercurrent. Let Vision give us Vision.
    I am sorry it took me so much time to participate in this thread ... personally I didn't know what was going on here ... until Ironman sent me a PM and alerted me to this post ...

    so ... I'll try to add my perspective here ...

    first ... I think it is ONLY fair that I let the members know that ALTHOUGH I AM NOT AN ARAB ... AT ALL ... I am a Muslim and a SHIA MUSLIM at that ...

    therefore, I belong to the MINORITY SECT IN ISLAM ...

    I would also like to point out that MY VIEWS are STRICTLY THAT ---> "MY" VIEWS ...

    every human being is a product of MULTIPLE influences and thus any OPINION from any ONE INDIVIDUAL cannot be generalized and taken as being that of a WHOLE SECT OR GROUP ...

    Being a SHIA MUSLIM ... I can safely claim to have better understanding of what MOTIVATES the SHIA mindset ... but I am sure that THERE WILL BE SHIAS WHO WILL DISAGREE WITH MY POINT OF VIEW ...

    What I'll try to do is present a view that I think is the general middle-of-the-road shia thinking ...

    in this way ... I will be able to safely say ... that the views I present on the TOPIC are shared by the majority of SHIAS around the WORLD ..

    so here goes ...

    before I respond to this topic, let me point out to ray that there are 73 SECTS within Islam ... I even PROVIDED a link to a site which LISTED them all and the differences between them ... The person who told Ray ... that there wern't 73 SECTS in Islam ... himself KNOWS that they are there ... but since Ray is NOT a muslim ... that person was taking ADVANTAGE of this fact and trying to PRESENT RAY with a homogeneous picture ... which even that person know ... is far from the truth ...

    now,

    before I talk about the SHIAS in Iraq ... let me provide you with a brief BACKGROUND about the SHIAS ...

    the SHIAS are a SECT in Islam that comprise roughly 25% of the Muslim world ... they are MOSTLY located IN NON-ARAB countries such as Iran, Pakistan, India, etc ... although there are SHIAS in the arab world too ... such as in Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Bahrain where they are a STRONG Majority and also in saudi arabia where they are an EXTREMELY OPRESSED AND BRUTALIZED MINORITY ...

    the difference between the shias and the sunnis started with the death of Prophet Mohammed ... and the fight for his succession ...

    the SHIAS thought that it was the RIGHT of ALI to be the successor since he was famous for his strength, tolerance, wisdom, and support of the PROPHET and ISLAM ... while the sunnis thought that ANYONE COULD BE THE SUCCESSOR ...

    anyways ... the sunnis HAD THE UPPERHAND FROM THE BEGINNING ... except for a VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME WHEN ALI DID OFFICIALLY BECOME KHALIF OF THE ISLAMIC STATE UNTIL HE WAS MURDERED ... the shias never had any POLITICAL PATRONAGE OR POWER and were therefore always OPPRESSED since they were the main OPPOSITION to the rulers ... and since the society was NOT democratic ... OPPOSITION TO THE RULERS WAS PUNISHABLE BY EXECUTION AND DEATH ...

    throughout, ISLAMIC HISTORY there were many, sustained and repeated attempts by the rulers to EXTERMINATE the SHIA opposition … the MOST famous being the attempt to KILL every single MEMBER OF ALI’S FAMILY some years following his death, ALL HIS FAMILY WAS KILLED IN A MOST BRUTAL FASHION … except for one grandson … who was so weak from illness that he was taken for dead …

    through him … ALI’S lineage continues …

    this occasion is still OBSERVED by SHIAS with sorrow as you may have seen on TV in the Iraqi cities of KERBALA and NAJAF and all over the Islamic world were shias are present …

    this attempt to KILL ALL OF ALI’S PROGENY is the corner-stone of SHIA IDENTITY … since shias believe that to remain LOYAL to ISLAM … they must commemorate this event ANNUALLY so that they do NOT forget the sacrifice made by Ali’s progeny simply to keep the VOICE of TRUTH alive AGAINST OPRESSIVE RULERS …

    The consequence of this continued OPPRESSION and lack of freedom was that the SHIAS … like any OTHER MINORITY that is OPPRESSED over HISTORY (such as for example the Jews) … ORGANIZED THEMSELVES INTO A VERY TIGHT, DISCIPLINED, INSTITUTIONALIZED GROUP …

    Therefore … even today … SHIA CLERGY IS MUCH MORE INSTITUTIONALIZED, DISCIPLINED AND FORMAL … than the remaining sunni Moslems … FOR THE SHIAS THIS WAS A NECESSITY TO SURVIVE …

    Just so that those who are NOT Moslems may understand … THE SHIA CLERGY IS HIGHLY INSTITUTIONALIZED AND DISCIPLINED … very similar to what Christians have in the Catholic Church … this is just an example … so that you can get the picture …

    Another result of always being OPRESSED and BRUTALIZED was that shias TEND TO TAKE ORDERS FROM THE CLERY AS BEING THEIR RELIGIOUS DUTY AND STICK TO THEM … this again … can be put down to survival tactics …

    The CLERGY itself is VERY DISCIPLINED AND FOLLOWS STRICT RULES AND NO DECISION IS PASSED UNLESS A TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONSENSUS IS ARRIVED AT … totally unlike sunni clery … where ANYONE can pass a RELIGIOUS DECREE …

    There are TWO MAIN SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT in shia Islam … one being the Najaf-based (Iraq) school of THOUGHT that BELIEVES in the SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE … CURRENTLY BEING HEADED BY GRAND AYATOLLAH SISTANI … and the other being the Qom-based (Iran) school of thought that believes in a more MIXED ROLE between church and state …

    Shias ARE ABSOLUTELY FREE TO CHOOSE WHICH THEY SUBSCRIBE TO ... there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPULSION …

    The vast majority of SHIAS subscribe to the Najaf-based school of thought which believes in the separation of Church and state …

    The only main exception being the Islamic state of Iran where the GOVERNMENT itself believe in the Qom-based school of thought … reasons best known to them …

    All these characteristics of the SHIAS as well as the fact that they were continuously OPPRESSED … lead the majority sunni believing that the shias wre some sort of sect that had exited Islam … since the sunnis were NEVER ORGANIZED in this manner … and since power was always in the hands of sunni rulers throughout history … they made sure that they spread misinformation against the shias so as to minimize opposition to their despotic regimes … and the best way for those rulers was to present the shias as if they were some sort of UNISLAMIC CULT … which can’t be farther from the truth…

    There always used to be problems against shias specially in states where they were a minority … but since the rise of Saudi WAHABBISM (a sect to whom all the fifteen WTC bomber terrorists belonged to) … and the discovery of OIL in saudia … these differences took on a more VIOLENT turn all over the Islamic world … where these terrorist extremists refused to accept the EXISTENCE of shias and went all out to KILL them ONE-BY-ONE … another reason being that the majority of Shias were NON-ARAB and the sunni arabs felt that to continue their dominance of Islam they had to exterminate as many NON-ARAB shias as possible … evidence of this can be found in the massacres conducted by saddam in Iraq … OBL in Afghanistan and Pakistan … and all over …

    Now,

    This is the first time in History that some state actually liberated the shias and as such the action by the US was welcomed whole-heartedly by EVERY SHIA ON THIS PLANET … since the enemies of the US were also the same people who were BUSY ANNIHILATING the shias everywhere …

    The shias actually saw light in a DEMOCRATIC IRAQ …

    It was the first time in History that they could be free … THANKS TO THE US …

    They saw a NATURAL ALLY in the US … but,

    When they practiced this freedom … when this JUNIOR CLERIC started up a newspaper … and opposed the US … the US immediately banned his paper …

    This lead to DEMONSTRATIONS that were in favour of FREEDOM and against BANNING the paper …

    What happened then was that the demonstrators were fired upon by COALITION TROOPS and many were killed …

    This lead to the fears of the shias being ignited … they felt afraid that ONCE AGAIN … they were being KILLED simply for trying to EXPRESS an OPINION in a newspaper … their nightmare of 1400 year … seemed to be coming back to haunt them … where once again they were being silenced by the barrel of a gun … this fear lead to a knee-jerk reaction against the COALITION FORCES …

    But,

    I predict that since the shias know that their main enemy are the forces of extremism who wish to silence them … they are in the same boat with the US and you will see very shortly that this JUNIOR cleric will be ordered to stop all action against the coalition forces … which he is duty-bound to obey …

    The only thing is that the US should realize that the shias are frightened of once again loosing their freedom and so should form a working relationship with their religious institutions and assure them that this time … for the first time in history … they will have their freedom … once that is done … the US will have NO PROBLEMS WITH THE SHIAS AT ALL …

    And, yes,

    All this talk of SHIAS and SUNNIS extremist/wahabbis getting together … is just pure B/S … how can the victim and the oppressor become buddies … it won’t happen … take my word for it …

    I know this is a long post … but I hope this can help you guys gain a better INSIGHT into the shia mindset …
    Last edited by visioninthedark; 14 Apr 04, at 16:09.

  12. #27
    Ray
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    Thanks Vision for another interesting view of the Shia Sunni divide. It used to be very marked in India, but now it does not turn out to be an annual violent event during Moharrum.

    My friend (a Sunni) believes that the other Sects of Islam believe in some Leader or Prophet, like the Aga Khan, Sydena, the Qadians etc and therefore cannot be counted as Moslems because Kohammed was the last and final prophet.

    Give me the link onve again if you please.

    Any comments?


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  13. #28
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    To Trooth:

    But isn't that what you are proposing? You have on several occaisions insisted that the west should impose its will on the region, its system of government and that those that disagree should be killed.
    I never said they should be killed, you choose to make this up!

    They have everyright to protest the new Government but if they attack our troops or the Government, we have a right to kill them. That is all I was saying.

    But there is no point if that government has to use force to stay in power. Which is what is happening in Iraq / Afghanistan. Both countries are now desecnding into anarchy because there is a power vacuum. The western appointed leaderships have no legitimacy because the people cannot relate to them. This isn't Star Trek. Captain Kirk can't simply read out the US declaration of independance and have "aliens"
    They would have to use retalitory force to stay in power. When they are attacked by islamists the Government has the right to fight back against them and destroy them.

    To: Ray

    I too HATE the fundoos (we call the fundamentalists so). But I look at the poor chaps whoare caught in between the Devil and the Deep Sea. I would like to help them so that they become the majority.
    Ray I agree, if there are thoose moderates out there that want to create a free Government that seperates church and state we should support them whole heartidly. While at the same time destroy thoose elements who wish to do us harm.

    But again my point is that we are appointing people to these Governments in Iraq and Afghanistan that are not moderate, that do not believe in Liberty, and want nothing less then a theocracy. This can not be allowed from the moral or even pragmatic viewpoint.
    Last edited by Praxus; 13 Apr 04, at 17:13.

  14. #29
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    Originally posted by Ray
    Thanks Vision for another interesting view of the Shia Sunni divide. It used to be very marked in India, but now it does not turn out to be an annual violent event during Moharrum.

    My friend (a Sunni) believes that the other Sects of Islam believe in some Leader or Prophet, like the Aga Khan, Sydena, the Qadians etc and therefore cannot be counted as Moslems because Kohammed was the last and final prophet.

    Give me the link onve again if you please.

    Any comments?
    You friend is one of those who are so full of traditipnal wahabbi lies that he has become blinded by hatred ...

    Except for one group, The Ahemedis (aka Qadianis) all other Muslim sects believe in the finality of Mohammed as a prophet and as such fit the DEFINITION of MUSLIM ...

    This is what I meant when I said that people have been fed so much propaganda by the sunni states over centuries that they are absolutely ill-informaed about Islam and its sects itself ...

    as far as the site is concerned ... I had posted it in some thread ... in this forum ... please search and I'm sure you'll find it ...

  15. #30
    Jay
    Jay is offline
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    Originally posted by Praxus

    They have everyright to protest the new Government but if they attack our troops or the Government, we have a right to kill them. That is all I was saying.
    YOU went there, you want to impose YOUR form of government (let it be the perfect system of governance, but if the people are against it, you dont have a right to impose it on them). And if people dont want you to stay there (violent or non-violent, its in their discretion, coz you dont have any business there, unless you clearly say your imperialistic mindset), YOU will resort to purge them.

    This doesnt sound right!! does it??

    P.s : By saying YOU i'm not trying to get personal!! I'm just addressing the general population
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

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