Officer of Engineers

Adu,

I wish you would look at the bigger picture than the small narrow prejudice that you hold (what did you say about the CCP invasion holding a grudge?)

There are Pakistanis who have no love for the Taliban, including 4 brigades who are itching to jump into that fight. However, I can understand from their perspective that would start a bigger war than they could handle. I happen to disagree with that but that is their country and that is their decision on just how much they want to fight.

It is their civilians who are under constant threat from the Taliban, not ours in the West. So, they want to end that threat one way or the other. They have a chosen a way that I happen to disagree with but then soldiers only know one way to peace from war - through victory.

__________________
Chimo

Cactus

Professional training for officers and NCOs on issues of dual-use like taking case of their soldiers, dealing professionally with multiple ethnicities and cultures, balancing personal religion with nation-state, expressing loyal-opposition and adhering to civil supremacy will surely help them rebuild their nation.

Afghans don't really need combat-training: Their combat culture is too different from modern Indian military's to have a lasting and wide-spread effect (except maybe in select technical fields). What they need is professional training in areas where they either have no experience at all, or in areas where their cultures resemble India's.

Afghans, like many Indians, are a religious lot: It is unrealistic to expect an officer to drop 20 years of religion after 18 months of training, but it is realistic to train them to balance personal religion with obligations to one's uniform. Afghanistan, like India, is a multi-ethnic nation: Again, it is the same story of how to balance one's ethnic identity with national identity. So on and so forth. Finally they have to learn completely modern ideas like loyal-opposition and civil supremacy: Just a century back it was as foreign to Indians as will be to Afghans now, but they sure can pick it up.

Cactus

India is helping build the strategy to counter the same enemy. As you noted earlier, the Afghans are not lacking in tactics or experience. What they lack is a system to put it into goo use. For that it needs professional officers and NCOs. And India is not alone in that effort: Spain, for example, is building a model battlion from scratch; that battalion will templates for all the regular ANA battalions eventually.

Neo

Theoratically you're right but it won't work in reality for couple of reasons.

Afghanis are a very old nation, one of the few with tribal culture and strong traditions, not open to western idiology or enlightment. There's a reason why AQ found local support whereas USA and her allies have failed to gain respect and trust of the comon man.

Training a 100.000 or even 200.000 strong army is not going make a difference or change anything, yes there will be better law and order but the devide between Pashtun's, Hazara's and Tajik's will remain a treat to the unity of the country and as soon as Nato leaves they'll be fighting for power.

You can't compare Afghanistan to India. India is a learnt and well developped society ebracing enlightment and modernisation. AQ could never succeed in India but it did in Afghanistan due lack of single development in the country for last 3-4 decaes. Afghanistan is still in dark ages compared to today's India.

__________________
Administrator @ Defence.pk

troung

Huh? The Northern Alliance included Massoud, Ismail Khan and Wahdat, people who fought the Soviets. Dostum's faction was the only major part which had fought alongside the Soviets (and BTW Hekmayter and later the Taliban all made use of ex-DRA technocrats).

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

Jay

You got to start from some where. From the looks of it, Afghans now know the world around them better than they knew in the 80's. So a change can be brought in Afghanistan, provided if "WE" all are committed to the cause.
FWIW India is still evolving, smarting in the last 15 years. India had a better start in terms of civil institutions and educational schools, a vibrant arts and cultural scene, than Afghanistan. But its still doable for Afhanistan. It just takes time.

__________________
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

Tronic

Adu, India and the world does care what Pakistan thinks in terms of Afghanistan; else Indian troops would already be there. Sadly, or fortunately, whichever way you look at it, this is not the Indira Gandhi or the Rajiv Gandhi era anymore. Indian leaders are of a different ilk these days.

__________________
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Adux

Sir,

Isnt Taliban a creation of Pakistan and was propped to keep the strategic buffer?

The Pakistani establishment is utterly divided over the Taliban issue, Asghar Khan, former ISI chief has been calling Taliban the 'victims',

Even with the moderate pakistani posters it seems Afghanistan is a nation that can be used to counter anybody else if it meant utter destruction of the said country in that process.

Their civilians are in threat, true. Iraqi's bomb their own markets, Pakistani's do bomb their own. It would be like(hypothetical) Republican Gaurd defecting and going against Saddam.



Regarding the CCP invasion of my life, please read about Kerala...lol..You'd be suprised. My state along with Brig.Ray's are the only state in India which has been a communist bastion. Atleast in my state the Congress Party is also powerful, and the incumbant always gets voted out. Two things that is greatest threat to India are China and Pakistan, and we have their proxies working in India in the name of Maoist Terrorist, and Islamic Terrorism. I will have the same problem that Westerners like you would have in accepting talks of platitude from Iranians, Palestinians, Hezbollah or Al-Qaeda. Life of my people is no less than that of a American, I see it no different.

Adux

Of all the Indian people I love the Sikhs the most, Can I say Dr.ManMohan Singh is the most spineless PM we ever had. I am waiting for the likes of Praful Patel to take higher positions.

Ray

Pakistan intervened in Afghanistan for its own political and military needs and not really out of any compassion, even though a religious sheen was given to the issue for political necessity, both for domestic and international consumption! And an excellent job they did.

However, Pakistan having uncorked the religious fanatics, failed to follow through and establish a govt as is understood in political terms of governance. It could also be that there was a method in the madness where Pakistan purposely allowed things to go out of control, for a strong Afghanistan is a dangerous Afghanistan since it could cause turmoil in the Pashtun majority areas of Pakistan. It is not the issue of Pakhtoonistan or Pakhtoonwali which I allude to, it is the free wheeling tribalism where each tribe jockeys for supremacy. A confused Afghanistan is a safe Pakistan.

The reason why Afghanistan is not favourable to Pakistan is not hard to understand. Pakistan is a stronger country than Afghanistan in every way and a strong neighbour does worry a weaker neighbour. Irrational it maybe, but very natural, as is the Pakistan vibes with India.

Apart from that, it would not be surprising that they maybe worried that Pakistan may use their Pashtuns to destabilise Afghanistan leading to a truncated Afghanistan!!

One wonders what you are meaning that Pakistan is fighting Afghanistan's war in Pakistan. Pakistan is fighting its own internal battle in FATA and NWFP. There is a view that Pakistan is using the situation to fulfil a long unfulfilled desire to bring these Tribal Agencies into the mainstream Pakistan than have the loose administration that is current. Further, Pakistan is fighting the WoT for its own reasons and not through any pollyannish desire. The WoT brought Pakistan from the brink of being termed as a 'rogue state' and a 'failed state' as also it filled its coffers with WB and IMF funds when the economy was scraping the barrel and gave it a bonanza of weapons to fill the void that was creeping up.

India is more favourably seen by Afghanistan because of the long historical ties, and because quite a few of the educated elite of Afghanistan were educated

Afghanistan does not give India any strategic depth.

The meaning of strategic depth has to be understood.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

ameer

You raise many good points there.

Just wondering, what would be the ideal situation in your opinion?

Ray

The Indian training mission to Afghanistan will not be a contingent. It would possibly consists of instructors of various ranks and one or two demo companies. It would hardly pose a threat to Pakistan, though given the sensitiveness, it could appear alarming to Pakistan.

The Indian Military Training and Assistance Group would in no way constitute an overkill even with the US training the Afghan Army. It would merely be complementary.

The IA has adequate experience in COIN, more than any western countries and she has experience with the AQ. It is a mistaken idea that the terrorists in J&K are homegrown. The majority are foreign hordes who are basically Pakistani fundamentalist malcontents and AQ elements.

As I see it, the Indian military assistance in no way would upset the effort of Pakistan since I presume it will only augment Pakistan's effort to ensure All Quiet on the Western Front, with the trained Afghans joining the effort!

Adux

Ray Sir,

If we can succeed in Afghanistan, lesser the number of Afghans in Kashmir. This is a strategic mission in the sense we will be able to cut off the favorite ISI 'talent pool' in their Kashmir Jihad


Adu

Ray

One has to understand the Taliban, Afghanistan and Pakistan issue in its correct perspective in its political, economic, religious and military realms.

I take it that the origin and genesis is known and requires no elaboration.

Afghanistan is important to Pakistan since there is religious affinity and the thorny issue of Pashtun commonality along a large tract of western Pakistan, as also, the historical connection of the Baloch people with this issue. Since these people are very independent in action and thought, it poses a serious worry to GoP since one does not know which side the cat will jump or the 'nuisance' they can create for Pakistan. Likewise, Afghans are also not too sure how this issue will pan out on their side of the border consequent to the problems in Pakistan with these elements.

Thus, that is possibly the reason for the common suspicion between Afghanistan and Pakistan that even the surge in pan Islamism cannot overcome.

Historically, the Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Tajiks, Turkmen, Nuristanis, Aimaks and the Balochis have coexisted with much rancour under the central authority of the Shah. This is because of the unique tribal system that prevailed wherein the tribes remained supreme and yet accepted the suzerainty of the Shah. Current efforts to establish a central authoritative govt is alien to the Afghan culture. Unless, there is spectacular improvement, none will abandon their fiefs for a federal structure. Even, if there are spectacular improvements, dissolving the tribal centric mindset will take years to dissolve.

Likewise, to expect that the tribes in western Pakistan will allow a federal control is a pipedream and it will meet with resistance and will take time to pan out. It is a historical aberration.

Therefore, these areas are and will be volatile in construct that military might alone will not iron out.

Strategically, Afghanistan is the gateway, as is Pakistan, into Central Asia - the new found golden goose. Therefore, the interest of various global and regional players is not surprising and require no elaboration for the educated posters of this forum.

In so far as the issue of the Taliban is concerned, the biggest problem that any Pakistani govt faces is that the population, steeped in Islam, are not amenable to fighting fellow Moslem since Islam is paramount over any geopolitical or geostrategic interest.

It would be a fallacy to believe that the educated elite alone represents the Pakistani mindset and it would also be dangerous to believe that the educated elite are devoid of the strong Islamic feeling (different from fundamentalist feeling) that prevents the GoP to apply itself pragmatically taking all factors of international relationship into consideration relegating Islamic sensitivity and sensibilities.

If a pragmatic person like Musharraf, backed by the military, could not deliver, it would be a real surprise if a democratic govt, that requires votes to exist, can.

Pakistanis are not against Taliban at all. They differentiate between Pakistani Taliban (who the educated feel are misguided) and the Afghan Taliban (whom the educated dislike because of the suspicions of Afghanistan).

A very interesting and a very convoluted conundrum that should not be superficially analysed.

Ray

The Afghanistan issue is a NATO issue.

Indians have very little to play in it.

NATO's success need not necessarily mean that it will be a boon for India.

It could instead release more of these vermin for action in Kashmir.