Ironduke

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The Buck Stops Here

-{SpoonmaN}-

Can't argue with the demand that the development effort be more sanely run. Considering that it now appears that EVERY SINGLE NATO leader as well as the other allies seem pretty keen that there be a co-ordinated plan, why the hell isn't there one? Also, its nice to see that France is finally willing to put the great flame war over Iraq behind them.

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"I have this to say to the people of Australia: Kick me, I'm different."

S-2

"Also, its nice to see that France is finally willing to put the great flame war over Iraq behind them."

Have they? I'm unsure. Rather, it seems that the French may be using this vulnerability of troops to further their desires w/ the ESDP. I suspect that the quid pro quo on a 1,000+ additional troops might be quite high to NATO in the long run.

France has been intentionally vague. Says Sarkozy-

"France has proposed a strategy to its allies in the Atlantic alliance to enable the Afghan people and their legitimate government to build peace.

"If these proposals are accepted, during the summit in Bucharest, France will propose reinforcing its military presence."

See my threads today on "The Future of NATO" thread to see what others suggest is behind France's proposal.

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"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

T_igger_cs_30

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FEAR NAUGHT

I don't work here ...I am an analyst!

Adux

Sorry for butting in gentlemen,

How much of french desire not to be second fiddle to USA or anyother plays here?

dave angel

quite a lot.

but then if you can think of a country that wants to have its interests play second fiddle to someone elses then you've found the all time winner of the 'village idiot' award.

the problem Germany and France have with A'stan is that they feel the US and UK are concentrating on one side of the conflict while ignoring another - that of the political action and reconstruction that has died on its arse while everyone gets excited about the warfighting that's happening in the south. their analysis is that until the political and economic battles are being fought the military fight in the south is an irrelevence - hence them not being wildly keen to get involved.

they see the war of Afghanistan as having two seperate, but utterly intertwined 'enemy formations', the first being the glamourous bit of twatting Terry Taliban with JDAM's and Artillery, but the second (and vastly more important and long-lived) being to the indifference of the population as to whether the West wins or where what passes for its central government falls and the country again decends into just a place on the map where any group with some cash and a few 8x8 field tents can set up a training camp.

they see the second being almost completely ignored, and it being just as fatal to the war objectives as ignoring the left-hand armoured pincer would be in a conventional armoured battle on the inner German Border. they see point whatsoever in throwing soldiers into a war that they genuinely believe the US and UK are setting themselves up to lose. and its not difficult to see their point.

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before criticizing someone, walk a mile in their shoes.................... then when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

glyn

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Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

Adux

Dave, Glyn

It seems France and Germany does have some points. From what I have read of Afghanistan, The Americans have changed their tact and style which I believe are more in terms of what Germany and France expects them to. Good for America, Good for NATO and Good for Afghanistan.

I have comes across two other demands France has put forward

1. No membership for Georgia and Ukraine in NATO
2. An EU group with the NATO

Oscar

Advocating the entry of Georgia and Ukraine into NATO is like saying that the annexation of Bosnia Herzegovina by the Austrian-hungarian empire in 1908 made Europe more secure

Half of the the population of Ukraine is russophone and it would only deepen the split inside the country. And for Georgia well, it happens to be potentially in one of the most volatile region in the world..Are afghanistan and the balkans not enough?

And after them why not kirghiztan or kazakhstan? The whole CIS except Russia?

Cactus

Heck, why not Russia too - it would sove your problem once and for all!

==========

On a more serious and practical note, from Russian bid to replace Pakistan as supply route: War in Afghanistan -DAWN - Top Stories; April 02, 2008:

It certainly be a major diplomatic coup for the allied forces' efforts in Afghanistan. Imagine the vast array of diplomatic and military solutions that will suddenly become available when the NATO commanders no longer have to poosyfoot around the "sensibilties" of the sole (part-time) ally who holds the logistics lines open (sometimes).

Adux

Cactus,

Can we come to the conculsion, that by taking the Pakistan route off, since the 'democratic' government is hostile to the United States, NATO will be bombarding the borders of Pakistan more intensively. Pakistan biggest trump card along with the fact they created most of the terror groups is they control the NATO supply routes.

Are we going to see NATO training their eyes on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border?

Cactus

Two things:

1. The NATO negotiations with the Russians have not even begun yet, so it would really be jumping to conclusion.

2. Notice I mentioned that if the pre-condition 1 is successfully concluded, a "vast array of diplomatic and military solutions" will be opened. In the end it will ultimately come down to how creative the allied diplomats are, as well as how pragmatic the Pakistani democratic leadership will be. Nine out of ten options needn't lead to Trans-Durand Line military action at all; one option is the military action.

Adux

[quote=Cactus;477034]Two things:

Agreed
My question is, wont the idea of opening up a new supply route directly linked to reduce dependency on Pakistan. Which inturn might open up Pakistan for NATO operations.

I know you are very knowledgble especially about the area in question,

Is it not true that most of the terror camps are not in the control of Pakistan Government anymore. Isnt it also true that Terror camps meant for Kashmir is now being used for training people in Afghanistan and also Taliban do seek refuge and base their operations from Pakistan's side of the border

So is it really far fetched that this 'democratic' government of Pakistan may have made a diplomatic and strategic blunder in changing its stance on WoT and US.

S-2

"Are we going to see NATO training their eyes on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border?"

Aren't you the same guy that started the "Valley of Death" thread? Who's eyes in those hills are those that look east? CJTF-82 is a subordinate command of ISAF.

"My question is, wont the idea of opening up a new supply route directly linked to reduce dependency on Pakistan. Which inturn might open up Pakistan for NATO operations."

Diversified routes of supply DO NOT automatically lead to the conclusion that our intent is to conduct NATO ops on Pakistan soil.

What interests me is that French paratroopers will replace American paratroopers in the east. The Americans, in turn, will move large elements south/south-west to assist Canadian, Dutch, and British troops. Anybody who's closely watched the eastern border knows that American operations there have included a generous mix of civil affairs along with highly kinetic combat operations-with success limited only by the available troops.

How will French troops approach this A.O., assuming that they'll be moving into a portion of 173rd Airborne's zone? Will they fall under U.S. command? If not, from where will they take their operational orders or, conversely, shall this French airborne battalion conduct it's operations independant of other efforts ongoing in their immediate vicinity?

Adux

S-2,

I am not a military man, though I have much interest in military; my understanding of military matters are less than average. Do be patient with me. Yes, I am the one who started the thread, and it was amazing documentary.
I am reading a bit more into this,

Thanks for your time and informative post.

Adu