tankie

Seconds out , round 4 , ding ding

__________________
TANKIE , WITHOUT WAX

S-2

Three questions, please. Take your time. I'm goin' to bed.

__________________
"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

maqsad

I didn't want any of my 5 retorts to veer off into a tangent in the first post. Thus they were kept brief.

I never said Afghanistan was singled out, ok well to a certain extent I must admit my belief is that it was when the taliban were being demonized ever since they gained power. The northern alliance was held up to be the legitimate govt of Afghanistan in the news and the taliban as the illegitimate islamic fundementalists that were bringing Afghanistan closer and closer to medieval times. Nothing positive was said about the taliban pre-2001 and certainly not after 2001. I think everyone can agree that the Taliban were demonized in mainstream American media. Pakistan, the UAE and Saudi were the only three nations on the planet who recognized the Taliban as legitimate. Much of the rest of the world, the US included spewed hate propaganda against the Taliban, and by extention(intended or not) the mass of the Afghan people. After all, what is a consumer of mainstream news meant to think during those times? That the average Afghan was a liberal, beer guzzling pagan being opressed by islamofascists? No, I think the impression the average person got was that Afghans must have a preference for this type of lifestyle.

Perhaps the removal of the Taliban was decided long before the catalysing effects of 911, I don't know but the impression I get is that propaganda targetting the Taliban and by extension the Afghan people was being churned out from the 90s onwards.

I have stated my opinion. Do you want me to dig up something akin to a gallop poll which supports my opinion? Remember I am referring to the majority in the American public, not you specifically or even the posters on this forum.

I take it once again you are asking me to further substantiate my personal opinion as it applies to American public sentiments. Well my personal opinion is just that, a personal impression that I have formed by living most of my life in America itself. Am I not allowed to form an opinion and express it here?

My "pre-concieved notion" about Americans is simply my own personal observation of how video and text propaganda has affected the majority of the American populace. Am I supposed to make a documentary explaining this phenomenon before I am allowed to express my own opinion regarding what I myself have observed?

Lets examine this other tidbit then. I have asserted that there are elements in the media that the average American has access to, which biases them against the middle east and Islam in general. Reason I mentioned this little tidbit by the way was because Islam is the dominant religion of Afghanistan and I thought it was relevent, not because I wanted to sit and whine about "Islam bashing" but simply because I thought it was relevent to the case of Afghanistan.

At the same time I also said that officially you will find that people who run campaigns against the religion of Islam always have an amusing disclaimer up their sleeves such as "I have nothing against the muslim people but blah blah.." or "I have nothing against moderate muslims but ya da da da..". Also we are well familiar with what political leaders say to the press regarding respect for all religions. Indeed GW Bush has come on TV many a time saying how great a religion Islam is etc etc but the average joe doesn't really seem to buy what Bush says, dismissing it in favor of a somewhat more negative opinion he/she has formed using other means.

I suppose you might want me to back all this up too? With sources rich in negative propaganda and perhaps some public polls that back me up statistically?

Tronic

Is the media biased? Possibly. But then tell me, which media is not biased? Now for your second point, I disagree that there is a bad image against Afghanis; the American image which I see projected is the US Army helping the common Afghanis by assisting in tackling the fanatical Taliban. I think most Americans understand the words Taliban and Al-Queda as the negative forces, rather then "Afghanis". And as for bad image against muslims in general; it is hard to judge whether it is due to bad image projection by the media or the recurrence of terror strikes and world wide arrests of terrorists who all have that one religion in common.

Hey, and Karzai's an Afghani! And maqsad, can you kindly tell me that at present, which country looks up to Afghanistan? And Afghan way of life? I'm sure that is something which even most Afghanis despise and are trying to improve. And please don't bring in Afghani traditions here; Afghan present way of life (that of mere survival) and Afghan culture and tradition are two very different things.

__________________
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Tronic

S-2, no, not necessarily government-colluded war propaganda. American broadcasters, public or private, I have seen have a strong sense of loyalty to the nation and its army. The US Army is almost always "our army" and US troops are almost always "our troops" and couple that with a great deal of coverage of American troops at the front lines. All that helps in creating a "oneness" and increasing the morale of the populace and the troops alike; pro-war or anti-war, American troops have the populace's support.

maqsad

I never made any claim that American media was unique in this way, I know it is not. My point was simply that American media is biased in a certain direction. I also pointed out what sort of propaganda is generally disbursed when it comes to shaping opinions on the Middle East, Islam, Afghanistan terrorism and their relationship to each other. The vast majority of Americans, and indeed perhaps westerners, have been conditioned to believe that Afghanistan is a medieval society which is a hotbed of terrorism and if these people are not invaded, occupied and "civilized" or killed off then it's going to be hell on earth for the west.

The "very very great feeling" that Karzai claims America has for Afghans are likely meant to be the above reasons which are supposedly motivating the American nation to continue to occupy Afghanistan since he insists Osama is nowhere in Afghanistan. Karzai also dropped a hint one of the benefits of the US occupation is that the Pak-Saud taliban caliphate was kicked out and secular democracy restored.

Anyway back to my statement regarding the multifaceted media campaign which is currently pro-war with regards to Afghanistan and Pakistan soon perhaps. As I mentioned there are obviously many different mindsets within the US. You have liberals, conservatives, right wingers, nationalists, leftist globalists, atheists, pan-secularists if there is such a word consisting of zealots who want to bring "democracy" to every corner of the globe in a fashion similar to a missionary does.

Now each one of these groups have regular, customized propaganda morsels dished out to them through the various individual "competing" media outlets which serve their regular news along with war propaganda which can consist of stories about how important it is to build secular institutions in Kabul for the pan-secularist, the right wing armchair general will learn how wonderfuly efficient US special ops are in hunting down taliban commanders, the atheist will come across some good news with regards to some madrassa being replaced by a coed kindergarten and feminists will delight in stories where burka clad women have been "liberated" from lives as beasts of burden and can function in society on equal terms. Very very seldom is it that one sees any respect for the indiginous values of the Afghan people. The emphasis is on forcing change and remodelling the place top down and bottom up to be nice and civilized and compliant and whoever resists this glorious mission will die.

The further you go from Afghanistan itself the more the distaste grows for Afghans and their way of life. They are hated now in Iran also but do have some amount of respect in Pakistan partly because the western half of Pakistan is almost a clone copy, culturally , topographically, linguistically and even genetically speaking of Eastern Afghanistan. This contempt is growing in Pakistan, partly due to the Pakistani media's exploitation of the negative side effects of terrorism that is blamed on Afghanistan and NWFP/Baloch based separatist groups. Needless to say American media has also capitalized on and fuelled contempt against "the bad ones in Afghanistan" especially since 911.

Tronic

Thats exactly what it was under the Taliban.

"These people" again refers to the Taliban. It is not the Americans running Afghanistan, it is the Afghans!

Can you rephrase that? It doesn't make sense. I would think the US would want to be where Osama is.

How untrue is that?

If that statement were true, Pakistan would have been invaded decades ago. America has befriended many dictators all over the world; Saddam was also one of them.

Whats wrong with secular institutions? I'm guessing you're not a big fan of democracy and secularism?

I have still got to see that one!

Not yet. Much work is still needed, women can only be on equal terms when the economical situation in Afghanistan improves.

Indiginous values of Afghans are not in suppressing people and running a society based on fear. Those are the values of the Taliban, please do not try to apply them on all Afghanis.

Why? You do not wish to see Afghanistan improve into a modern progressive nation?

Iran hates the Taliban, not all of Afghans. Iran played a good role in helping the Northern Alliance overthrow the Taliban. And as for Afghanis themselves, they are hated/loved the same in both Iran and Pakistan simply due to the mass refugees from Afghanistan. Plenty of times has Pakistan called the Afghanis living within its borders a "burden".

You are a Taliban supporter I presume?