A 'surge' for Afghanistan?

Ray · 11-29-2007, 14:21 PM

Quote:

A 'surge' for Afghanistan?

A Marine proposal under discussion this week would redeploy troops from Iraq.
By Gordon Lubold | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

from the November 29, 2007 edition

Reporter Gordon Lubold talks about a potential new assignment for the US Marine Corps.

Kabul, Afghanistan - The top general of the Marine Corps is pushing hard to deploy marines to Afghanistan as he looks to draw down his forces in Iraq, but his proposal, which is under discussion at the Pentagon this week, faces deep resistance from other military leaders.

Commandant Gen. James Conway's plan, if approved, would deploy a large contingent of marines to Afghanistan, perhaps as early as next year. The reinforcements would be used to fight the Taliban, which US officials concede is now defending its territory more effectively against allied and Afghan forces.

Within the Pentagon, General Conway's proposal has led to speculation about which, if any, American forces would be best suited to provide reinforcements for a mission that, most agree, has far more political appeal than the one in Iraq. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has already recommended against the proposal, at least for now, a military official said Tuesday.

That leaves the decision up to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

"It came down to an issue of timing," says the official, who didn't want to be named because of the sensitivity of the recommendation. "The chairman didn't feel that this was the right time."

Conway says that marines, who have been largely responsible for calming Anbar Province in Iraq, can either return home or "stay plugged into the fight" by essentially redeploying to Afghanistan. The general returned Monday from a trip to Iraq and Afghanistan, where he visited with marines and stressed that the Corps is not out to snatch a senior command billet in Afghanistan, nor is it trying to get out of Iraq "while the getting is good."

Critics of the plan worry that it would leave too much risk for the Army in Iraq, but Conway argues that the Corps would assume more risk in Afghanistan than it has now in Anbar Province, where violence has abated considerably.

"The trend lines tell us that it may be time to increase the force posture in Afghanistan," Conway says, in his first public comments on the matter since the proposal was leaked to the press last month.

Ideally, he says, the international community would provide more help for the roughly 50,000 coalition forces there now – about half of them American troops, mostly from the Army. About 300 marines are currently stationed in Afghanistan.

"But if it requires additional US forces," Conway says, "then it goes back to our suggestion that maybe we need more marines in there with a more kinetic bent."

Adm. William Fallon, head of US Central Command, which oversees operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan, is said to be "very strong" on the Conway option, says another senior military official, who asked not to be named, adding that the whole mix of forces must be looked at before a decision can be made.

"We're at the taking-a-hard-look-at-it stage," says this official. "The positive side of the Marines looking at this for a deployment is it would be a good mix of combat power and training and equip missions."

Secretary Gates's focus so far has been to seek more help from the international community to provide trainers and other forces to combat the resurgent Taliban.

Top Army and Air Force officials have expressed concern about the Conway plan, even as US officials on the ground in Afghanistan appear to welcome the idea.

The Corps would probably deploy a Marine Air Ground Task Force, a self-contained unit that brings with it its own headquarters, ground elements, logistics, and air-assault capabilities that may be especially suited to the scale of operations in Afghanistan, Conway says.

Gates has appeared to shoot down the idea in remarks over the past month. But sources say the Defense secretary hasn't yet been fully briefed on the matter.

Two years ago, the Pentagon was set to proclaim military success in Afghanistan and tie it up with a bow. But this year the security mission in Afghanistan has suffered from the US focus on Iraq and a heavy reliance on an international force.

NATO's command in Afghanistan, the International Security Assistance Force, has had some victories on the ground there, working with the nascent Afghan Army and police force. But the US considers some allied nations to be "casualty averse," not expecting to be engaged in heavy combat operations back when they signed up for what they considered a training-and-peacekeeping mission. Suicide attacks in Afghanistan are on the rise, and US casualties, though relatively few compared with those in Iraq, have increased as well, according to American military officials on the ground there.

Conway, for one, is convinced that Afghanistan's security needs inevitably will require more American forces – and that the Corps, with its "expeditionary" focus, is well suited to the mission. Already, he has sent two Marine battalions to mountain warfare training in California to prepare for the missions in Afghanistan should the request come.

The Corps is already beginning to plan the drawdown of its forces in Anbar in Iraq, where the bulk of Marine forces are deployed.

So far, the calm in Anbar, which began before the surge of US forces this spring, has continued, and Marine officials believe the strategy there has worked. It seems unlikely that a large contingent of marines would stay in Anbar much longer if that peace continues. Unless marines are sent elsewhere in Iraq, that would leave Conway an opening to redeploy them to Afghanistan.

Such a deployment would also ease the Corps' deployment tempo, a goal Gates established for both the Army and Marine Corps upon taking office in January.

The decision about which forces, if any, to send to Afghanistan has a political subtext. If the White House were to send more US forces into a country most Americans thought was already secure, Democrats would be sure to exploit the security retrogression during an election year.

Such a decision, too, would have reverberations within the Pentagon, since the US force that would return to Afghanistan would carry with it a political prize. While much of the American public wants US forces out of Iraq, many see Afghanistan as the more righteous mission, because the origins of the 9/11 attacks can be traced there.

"Marines may be jockeying for the longer-term and maybe more popular role," says Anthony Cordesman, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a think tank in Washington.

If more American forces are needed in Afghanistan, then the Pentagon must look at the "entire pool" of forces before it decides that what is best for the Marine Corps is also best for its policy in Afghanistan, says Mr. Cordesman.

Institutional memory lost?

Michael O'Hanlon, a senior analyst at the Brookings Institution, another think tank in Washington, is not necessarily opposed to Conway's idea, but he worries that taking marines out of Anbar, where they have been effective, could rob the US of vital knowledge about the province.

"The Marines know more about that province than the Army does," he says.

Marines are already being asked to help with the fight in Afghanistan. Last month, Corps officials announced that AV-8B Harrier jump jets – attached to the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit deployed aboard an amphibious assault ship – flew more than a dozen sorties over Afghanistan. The jets conducted reconnaissance, escorted ground convoys, and dropped precision-guided munitions on enemy targets, according to Corps officials.

A 'surge' for Afghanistan? | csmonitor.com

It is time that Afghanistan is given a serious look.

The timing is just ripe with Pakistan moving towards democracy and the Pak Army flexing its muscles in the Swat Valley!

Or will Pakistan's return to democracy be an inhibitor?

The US and the West can still control Pakistan since the military aid is lollipops to the Pak Generals and as it is of all the Cobras given to Pakistan, only one is serviceable due to lack of spares.

China can't match the US in freebies, be it military hardware or the money that has sustained Pakistan so far.

But care has to be taken so that this does not become repetitive:-

Quote:

NATO Strike Is Said to Kill 14 Civilians in Afghanistan

By ABDUL WAHEED WAFA
Published: November 29, 2007

KABUL, Afghanistan, Nov. 28 — A NATO airstrike killed 14 workers for an Afghan company that had been contracted by the United States Army Corps of Engineers to build a road in Nuristan, a mountainous province in eastern Afghanistan, officials said Wednesday.

The strike occurred Monday night in the Norgram district of Nuristan when the Afghan workers for the Amerifa Construction Company were sleeping after a day’s work............

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/29/wo...html?ref=world

Adux · 11-29-2007, 14:22 PM

Sir,

I love the Avatar, Let me guess, Old Czarist Russian Era.

S-2 · 11-29-2007, 17:30 PM

Dutch Apaches Track Taliban Using Human Shields

Brigadier,

Nobody knows more than you just how insidious these guys can be to avoid our targeting. I don't what happened to the AMERIFA employees nor why. However, I neither excuse nor condemn the attacks out-of-hand in the absence of facts. That a mistake was made seems likely as we're not in the habit of wasting perfectly good ordnance on unproductive targets nor are our pilots conducting attacks without significant warnings and caveats provided to govern their actions.

Still, the above videos go far to graphically detail the extent to which these BASTARDS will go to avoid our fires.

"'But if it requires additional US forces,' Conway [COMMANDANT, USMC] says, 'then it goes back to our suggestion that maybe we need more marines in there with a more kinetic bent.'"

Where to begin? "Kinetic"ism is, first, not necessarily what we might require from additional U.S. forces. Secondly, since when have U.S. Army infantry forces NOT been noted as possessing a "kinetic bent" when necessary? That didn't sit well with this former U.S. Army artilleryman. I can't imagine what my infantry brothers might think.

"Conway, for one, is convinced... that the Corps, with its 'expeditionary' focus, is well suited to the mission."

Fact is, Afghanistan is hardly an expeditionary mission. It's a long-term commitment. Having said all that, if Marines want a fight so bad that they'll replace doggies one-for-one so we can go home and stay there, I'm cool.

Each marine is just one more trained rifleman in this fight and it doesn't exploit their primary skills nor address the range of global contingencies for which an "expeditionary" corps might more profitably focus it's energies and time.

Ray · 11-30-2007, 00:54 AM

To be able to sanitise Afghanistan of insurgents and terrorists is an impossible task, like it or not.

One can at best bring it under control and try to win the heart and minds thereafter or do it simultaneously.

One has to occupy the border on the mountains physically by picquetting (one could read about it in the British India GS publication on the Ops of War 'Defence' or was it 'Advance', under the chapter Picquetting int he Khyber"). It will make the ingress by terrorists difficult, though not impossible.

Another set of troops could clear the rear areas. This is an ongoing process since there is nothing like 'sealing the border'. The mountainous and wooded terrain prevents total surveillance, even with a fence erected with surveillance devices abound.

It takes enormous amount of troops.

India has been successful to a great degree by doing the same in Kashmir. The advantage ISAF will have which India does not have, is that the Pakistani troops in the NWFP, Waziristan, FATA would also assist in stopping the terrorists and so the influx of terrorists in Afghanistan would be marginal compared to the numbers who enter India!

S-2 · 11-30-2007, 01:20 AM

Brigadier,

I'm sorry, sir. I can't concentrate with that god-awful avatar you now have. Who in the heavens is that?!

Now, if a religious deity, I'm fine. Of course.

Piquetting, eh? Brigadier, we ummm..., we call em' "pickets" on our side of the pond. Imagine that. An Englishman substituting a french word for a descriptive and ORIGINAL english word.

From a British Army general staff study, no less!

The answer might be pickets/piquettes, Brigadier. High time, though, that they be posted by more than just Americans, Brits, Canadians, and Dutch/Danes.

EVERYBODY seems to have sent their SOF forces as their nat'l populations wouldn't know squat about what they're up to anyway. Regular troops? The excuses are wearing damned thin all the way around.

Being "in-country" ain't enough, by far. If I'm AQ and the Taliban, I go after the Germans, Scandies, Italians, Spanish, and French in a big way. Too bad we set those guys up where it's hard for the taliban to bump into them on crossing the border. That's what it took to secure their participation, I'm sure. Well away from the border zones where trouble would be guaranteed to FIND THEM.

It sucks, Brigadier. It really ferkin' does.

Ray · 11-30-2007, 01:42 AM

Yes, it should be picquetted by other too, especially those who have been in the game for a long time (if you know what I mean!).

But it would not be possible since it will upset the apple cart!

I have no clue as to who this guy is in the avatar, but I liked the fat face, round pugree, the beehive he has under his chin and the whole of medals on his chest. all possibly given to him by himself!

S-2 · 11-30-2007, 03:11 AM

"I have no clue as to who this guy is in the avatar, but I liked the fat face, round pugree, the beehive he has under his chin and the whole of medals on his chest. all possibly given to him by himself!"

Brigadier,

Cactus would call him a tali-tubbie. I'd agree if he did.

You're referring to the Pakistanis. Fat chance. I've definitely lost faith in their Army's determination to prosecute any serious fight in their own territory. The GoP has ceded the northwest to outlaws, brigands, and terrorists.

I'm referring to our ever-so nervous nellie "allies" who's blood is somehow a little more precious than that of our soldiers.

BTW, I absolutely would endorse an Indian presence in Afghanistan. Larger, the better. A corps would be just groovy and I'm sure that it would catch the attention of the Pakistanis beautifully.

Ray · 11-30-2007, 13:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

"I have no clue as to who this guy is in the avatar, but I liked the fat face, round pugree, the beehive he has under his chin and the whole of medals on his chest. all possibly given to him by himself!"

Brigadier,

Cactus would call him a tali-tubbie. I'd agree if he did.

You're referring to the Pakistanis. Fat chance. I've definitely lost faith in their Army's determination to prosecute any serious fight in their own territory. The GoP has ceded the northwest to outlaws, brigands, and terrorists.

I'm referring to our ever-so nervous nellie "allies" who's blood is somehow a little more precious than that of our soldiers.

BTW, I absolutely would endorse an Indian presence in Afghanistan. Larger, the better. A corps would be just groovy and I'm sure that it would catch the attention of the Pakistanis beautifully.

Yes, he looks like a Tele Tubby! I, however, continue to be relatively slim.

While one is dissatisfied with Pakistan's effort to combat the Taliban and other terrorists, I wonder if it is possible for them to fight Moslems being Moslems.

This psyche you will not understand since you are not a Moslem, nor you have the advantage of interacting with the 'genuine' Moslems. One aspect I have understood is that to a Moslem, the religion is uber alles! Nationality and other interests come after that. It is not that they do not adjust. They do, but then they have to keep the Islamic requirements also in mind. Pakistan is well aware that the genie Zia has unleashed is dangerous; but then, Islam takes over and they cannot disown their Islamic freedom fighters either! Caught between the devil and deep sea and yet hoping that they are saved by someone, without their losing face!

India initially offered to be in Afghanistan and not Iraq, but then Bush realised that would be tricky.

Our quasi military organisation GREF (General Engineering Reserve Force) is building roads and we have hospital services and training their police!

Adux · 11-30-2007, 14:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Our quasi military organisation GREF (General Engineering Reserve Force) is building roads and we have hospital services and training their police!

Sir,

Why is our Military so behind in PR Campigns. Why isnt our efforts in Afghanistan shown more in the media?

Cactus · 11-30-2007, 14:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

I have no clue as to who this guy is in the avatar, but I liked the fat face, round pugree, the beehive he has under his chin and the whole of medals on his chest. all possibly given to him by himself!

Brig Ray,

Your man would be Mohammed Alim Khan, the last Emir of Bukhara Mohammed Alim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adux · 11-30-2007, 14:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cactus

Brig Ray,

Your man would be Mohammed Alim Khan, the last Emir of Bukhara Mohammed Alim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The colour was added later, absolutely brilliant pic, I thought he was some random guy in the Russian Aristocracy

Cactus · 11-30-2007, 14:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

Sir,

Why is our Military so behind in PR Campigns. Why isnt our efforts in Afghanistan shown more in the media?

If I may hazard a guess, Border Roads Organization's real speciality is building roads in high-altitude regions - namely Indo-Tibetan border, so they probably have their own reasons for keeping secrecy and a low-profile. Plus consider their protective service is carried out by 2 coys from Indo-Tibetan Border Police, who wouldn't appreciate limelight either, given their nature of work.

Consider that their mere presence used to drive former Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul to madness at the stew he imagined RAW, CIA, MI6 and for some reason the German BMD(?) was brewing for his proteges in A'stan. (His article in the Yawn/Dung would be a fun read if you can get hold of it. He probably has other things to worry now that he is languishing in Rawalpindi Central under Emergency - possibly the most symbollically imporant move Gen. Mush made). A level of secrecy, even if work being done is hardly secretive, probably serves India's ends quite nicely in this instance.

PS: The real reason may be quite more innocent than that: The BRO may have been contracted out as a public sector undertaking, so it is not in its "military mode" at all; similarly for ITBP being in its "Home Ministry" mode. A simple foreign job. But let is never be said that Cactus missed an opportunity to try his hand at writing spy-fiction!

Ray · 11-30-2007, 14:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cactus

Brig Ray,

Your man would be Mohammed Alim Khan, the last Emir of Bukhara Mohammed Alim Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks a ton.

Call me Md Alim Khan, Emir of Bukhara!

Ray · 11-30-2007, 14:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cactus

If I may hazard a guess, Border Roads Organization's real speciality is building roads in high-altitude regions - namely Indo-Tibetan border, so they probably have their own reasons for keeping secrecy and a low-profile. Plus consider their protective service is carried out by 2 coys from Indo-Tibetan Border Police, who wouldn't appreciate limelight either, given their nature of work.

Consider that their mere presence used to drive former Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul to madness at the stew he imagined RAW, CIA, MI6 and for some reason the German BMD(?) was brewing for his proteges in A'stan. (His article in the Yawn/Dung would be a fun read if you can get hold of it. He probably has other things to worry now that he is languishing in Rawalpindi Central under Emergency - possibly the most symbollically imporant move Gen. Mush made). A level of secrecy, even if work being done is hardly secretive, probably serves India's ends quite nicely in this instance.

There was no secrecy in this.

It was in the newspapers.

Col Sarbjit Singh, my Garrison Engineer, was heading the lot!

S-2 · 11-30-2007, 14:47 PM

"This psyche you will not understand since you are not a Moslem, nor you have the advantage of interacting with the 'genuine' Moslems. One aspect I have understood is that to a Moslem, the religion is uber alles! Nationality and other interests come after that."

Perhaps. It strikes me, though, as a convenience rendered when muslims AREN'T slaying one another. I've noticed no such hesitance for sunnis and shias to kill in the name of Allah against one-another in Iraq (and many, many other instances-Beirut/Lebanon and Baluchistan are prominent.).

The bill seems due for such dissemblance by the GoP. Their national sovereignty is threatened from within, as you've noted, by this rampant neglect of radical Islam's challenge to their gov't.

11-29-2007, 17:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,316 Country:	Ray Reply Dutch Apaches Track Taliban Using Human Shields Brigadier, Nobody knows more than you just how insidious these guys can be to avoid our targeting. I don't what happened to the AMERIFA employees nor why. However, I neither excuse nor condemn the attacks out-of-hand in the absence of facts. That a mistake was made seems likely as we're not in the habit of wasting perfectly good ordnance on unproductive targets nor are our pilots conducting attacks without significant warnings and caveats provided to govern their actions. Still, the above videos go far to graphically detail the extent to which these BASTARDS will go to avoid our fires. "'But if it requires additional US forces,' Conway [COMMANDANT, USMC] says, 'then it goes back to our suggestion that maybe we need more marines in there with a more kinetic bent.'" Where to begin? "Kinetic"ism is, first, not necessarily what we might require from additional U.S. forces. Secondly, since when have U.S. Army infantry forces NOT been noted as possessing a "kinetic bent" when necessary? That didn't sit well with this former U.S. Army artilleryman. I can't imagine what my infantry brothers might think. "Conway, for one, is convinced... that the Corps, with its 'expeditionary' focus, is well suited to the mission." Fact is, Afghanistan is hardly an expeditionary mission. It's a long-term commitment. Having said all that, if Marines want a fight so bad that they'll replace doggies one-for-one so we can go home and stay there, I'm cool. Each marine is just one more trained rifleman in this fight and it doesn't exploit their primary skills nor address the range of global contingencies for which an "expeditionary" corps might more profitably focus it's energies and time. __________________ "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

11-30-2007, 01:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,316 Country:	Ray Reply Brigadier, I'm sorry, sir. I can't concentrate with that god-awful avatar you now have. Who in the heavens is that?! Now, if a religious deity, I'm fine. Of course. Piquetting, eh? Brigadier, we ummm..., we call em' "pickets" on our side of the pond. Imagine that. An Englishman substituting a french word for a descriptive and ORIGINAL english word. From a British Army general staff study, no less! The answer might be pickets/piquettes, Brigadier. High time, though, that they be posted by more than just Americans, Brits, Canadians, and Dutch/Danes. EVERYBODY seems to have sent their SOF forces as their nat'l populations wouldn't know squat about what they're up to anyway. Regular troops? The excuses are wearing damned thin all the way around. Being "in-country" ain't enough, by far. If I'm AQ and the Taliban, I go after the Germans, Scandies, Italians, Spanish, and French in a big way. Too bad we set those guys up where it's hard for the taliban to bump into them on crossing the border. That's what it took to secure their participation, I'm sure. Well away from the border zones where trouble would be guaranteed to FIND THEM. It sucks, Brigadier. It really ferkin' does. Last edited by S-2 : 11-30-2007 at 02:06 AM.

11-30-2007, 01:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,209 Country:	Yes, it should be picquetted by other too, especially those who have been in the game for a long time (if you know what I mean!). But it would not be possible since it will upset the apple cart! I have no clue as to who this guy is in the avatar, but I liked the fat face, round pugree, the beehive he has under his chin and the whole of medals on his chest. all possibly given to him by himself! Last edited by Ray : 11-30-2007 at 01:46 AM.

11-30-2007, 03:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,316 Country:	Ray Reply "I have no clue as to who this guy is in the avatar, but I liked the fat face, round pugree, the beehive he has under his chin and the whole of medals on his chest. all possibly given to him by himself!" Brigadier, Cactus would call him a tali-tubbie. I'd agree if he did. You're referring to the Pakistanis. Fat chance. I've definitely lost faith in their Army's determination to prosecute any serious fight in their own territory. The GoP has ceded the northwest to outlaws, brigands, and terrorists. I'm referring to our ever-so nervous nellie "allies" who's blood is somehow a little more precious than that of our soldiers. BTW, I absolutely would endorse an Indian presence in Afghanistan. Larger, the better. A corps would be just groovy and I'm sure that it would catch the attention of the Pakistanis beautifully.

11-30-2007, 14:47 PM	#15 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,316 Country:	Cactus Reply "This psyche you will not understand since you are not a Moslem, nor you have the advantage of interacting with the 'genuine' Moslems. One aspect I have understood is that to a Moslem, the religion is uber alles! Nationality and other interests come after that." Perhaps. It strikes me, though, as a convenience rendered when muslims AREN'T slaying one another. I've noticed no such hesitance for sunnis and shias to kill in the name of Allah against one-another in Iraq (and many, many other instances-Beirut/Lebanon and Baluchistan are prominent.). The bill seems due for such dissemblance by the GoP. Their national sovereignty is threatened from within, as you've noted, by this rampant neglect of radical Islam's challenge to their gov't.

11-29-2007, 14:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Sir, I love the Avatar, Let me guess, Old Czarist Russian Era.

11-30-2007, 00:54 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,209 Country:	To be able to sanitise Afghanistan of insurgents and terrorists is an impossible task, like it or not. One can at best bring it under control and try to win the heart and minds thereafter or do it simultaneously. One has to occupy the border on the mountains physically by picquetting (one could read about it in the British India GS publication on the Ops of War 'Defence' or was it 'Advance', under the chapter Picquetting int he Khyber"). It will make the ingress by terrorists difficult, though not impossible. Another set of troops could clear the rear areas. This is an ongoing process since there is nothing like 'sealing the border'. The mountainous and wooded terrain prevents total surveillance, even with a fence erected with surveillance devices abound. It takes enormous amount of troops. India has been successful to a great degree by doing the same in Kashmir. The advantage ISAF will have which India does not have, is that the Pakistani troops in the NWFP, Waziristan, FATA would also assist in stopping the terrorists and so the influx of terrorists in Afghanistan would be marginal compared to the numbers who enter India!

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