Ray

Would this make any difference?

While Islam may be a common denominator and closer to the Afghanis compared to the western troops, yet, notwithstanding what Daly has to state, the culture, language and habits would be totally different. It is only a western eye that feels that because a nation is Islamic, all factors must be common. That is not so. The Bangaldeshis have a totally different mindset to the Pakistanis and that is why they split. Likewise, the Mohajirs of Pakistan, though of the same country ie British India are no way liked (except grudgingly by the Punjabi Pakistanis and that is why they are still referred to as Mohajirs or refugees! Of course, the Pakistanis will give a religious connotation to the word Mohajir, but in actuality it is to indicate that they are different and refugees to boot! )

The Afghans would be closer in ethnicity and ethos to the Persians and Arabs. Would the historical issue of the Turks having ruled over these people and not always in a benevolent way play on the minds of the Afghanis or worse still, exploited by the Taleban and other cahoots to negate the advantage of an Islamic force being in position?

This article again highlights the issue that western author see a silver lining in a black cloud and go ecstatic and close their mind to the actual problems that are there to be solved.

The issue is economic.

Take the example of India. The economy is booming and encouraged by western perceptions which is going gaga over it, many Indians are seeing a superpower status, forgetting that there are many who are still being left out of the pie and who can become millstones. It is only when everyone is taken along can India become what it can become.

Likewise, unless Afghanistan's economic backwardness is addressed and solved, one could bring in all the Islamic powers to bear on it and still there will be the problems that manifest itself there.

Islam is only a part of the problem. It is not the Main problem.

Islam cannot fill the stomach.

It can only fill the minds and divert it from the stomach!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

S-2

Brigadier,

Great post!

"This article again highlights the issue that western author see a silver lining in a black cloud and go ecstatic and close their mind to the actual problems that are there to be solved."

We do seem at times to be grasping at straws for good news, particularly indications that we are becoming "culturally attuned". Perhaps this will be an instance of such. I must say that I wasn't particularly overwhelmed by the ACTUAL contributions made by Turkey in the examples provided and can't forget that they refused a role in the UNIFIL contingent last summer (SMART!) when I felt that their force contribution would be both significant and effective.

Your point about the ethnic divisions within Islam is well-taken. Afghanistan has a turkic population of less than 3% (according to the C.I.A. World Factbook). Uzbek and Turkmen are minor languages. Most Afghans are Sunni, however, particularly in the east. So, it's difficult to say just how culturally attuned the Turk commander might be. Still, he sounds like a well-rounded commander with good international experience as well as significant operational planning experience. I'm sure that he's adept.

In some ways, the ISAF mission around Kabul is critical. I do not believe that the war can be won in Kabul, but it can certainly be lost. To that end, maintaining the stability of the capital is paramount to the legitimacy of the Afghani government. So far (knock on wood) that's been the case- and must remain so.

__________________
"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Ray

May I be bold enough to say that India has more cultural affinity with the Afghans (Pastuns) than Turkey, but the US has kept it out for strategic reasons!

India is currently involved in non military activities Afghanistan including building of roads by the GREF (General Reserve Engineering Forces) which builds border roads in India.

S-2

"May I be bold enough to say that India has more cultural affinity with the Afghans (Pastuns) than Turkey, but the US has kept it out for strategic reasons!"

Hmmm... That cultural affinity with the Afghans might go a long way to eliminating any mis-begotten notions of "strategic depth" for Pakistan, eh sir?

Very tricky, Brigadier! You've my encouragement to take over the N.A.T.O. mission at any time. Thank you, indeed!

Tiger

I don't think the US will allow India into the fracas for the simple reason is that Pakistan's sensitiveness about India may lose the US a frontline ally!

Kartajan

While the plurality of Afghans (the Pathans) are closer to Iranian and Indian Sub-Continental people, large minorities of Afghans are of different Turkic ethnicities like Uzbek or Turkomen. Tajiks are ethnically closer to Turks, but culturally closer to Iranians. The particular Turks we are talking about would have never ruled Afghanistan - the Turks who ruled Afghanistan are ethnically Uzbek, Turkoman and Mughal.

Afghans benefitted handsomely in Turkoman and Mughal services in Iran and India respectively. The "Father of Afghanistan", Ahmed Shah Abdali of the Durranis, started his career by assasinating his part-Turkoman lord and Shah of Iran Nadir Shah... and then ransacking the remains of the Mughal India. Lets just hope its not that kind of relationship Turks develop with the Afghans!

Turkey's main advantage is in setting itself as an example of a modern and secular yet majority Muslim country. Practically speaking intially the Turk soldiers can pick up local Turkic languages with some effort, Turks bring good experience in mountain warfare to pursue the enemy, Turks have shown committment to international military operations (UN force in Korean War). The Turks have a moderately rich market of their own and can act as backdoor to Europe for some Afghan exports like fruits and crafts. Finally the Turks can include Afghanistan in their oil-pipleine plans to make economic use of the fields mainly in Afghanistan's North West.

Quite practical and possible... but the security situation must first change for the better. Taliban is still too powerful, NATO still too hesitant to act decisively. In that regard Turkey won't be able to do anything proactive by itself.

PS: Oh, and unless Afghans want to be helped there isn't anything anyone can do for them... with some people thats not always a given.

Tiger

Remember the kABULIWALAS?

The Karzais and Abdullah Abdullahs?

All Indian oriented!

Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan - the Red Gandhi or the Frontier Gandhi?

Big K

i i remember it right Afghanistan is the first country which recognised Turkey.

__________________
When i say, there will be no effect but i am not willing to remain silent.
-Fuzuli

Ray

A dated article of Khalilzad

http://www.sam.gov.tr/perceptions/Vo...yKhalilzad.pdf

Big K

it is not only the religion or being a good exemple etc.

to understand the advantage of Turkish influence in Afghanistan i think you have to study History without prejudices.

cato

Much ado about nothing. Sizable portions of the populace are Shiite, and the majority of the populace (Pathans) aren't Turkic. The Talibs will kill a Turk as readily as a Canadian. The Turks wanna hump the Hindu Kush with with the Canucks, Limeys and Yanks, we'll have something to kvetch about.
Cato

Big K

i think the most important error is the way we look.

we are trying to explain with Turkic ethnicities or islam etc...

Turkish advantage is hard to explain. its almost nothing to do with Islam, or Turkic ethnicities or etc.

its a grand total of all of these factors plus a very good reputation.

cato

Big K,
So what you are saying is that the Turkish Army's presence will be more effective than other ISAF members because the Turks look less "Western"? Most Turks I've met look like they could be from Greece, Southern Italy, or Spain. What intangibles do you mean? As I stated, I think Turkey's relationship to Afghanistan is tangenital at best. Sharing common ethinc heratige with a small portion of the populace hardly speaks to some great inherant comity. Turks may be Sunnis, but sharing a common faith carries little water with the Pathans, who are EXTREMELY xenophobic. I would also dare to say that the Islam as practiced by most Turks would be an alien thing to the Deobandi puritainism practiced by the bad guys. No doubt the Turkish army is good, but I still can't see how Turkey is somehow naturally qualified to operate in Afghanistan.
Cato

Big K

infact the same thing with the why Turkish army have the best solutions in Somali and Kosovo and will probably in Lebannon.

Turkish soldiers are mostly coming from villages like in Afghanistan, maybe they are well trained but still more villager than city-man.

yes the same faith also will help but this not the main thing...

i dont know how to explain this in English but theres a word in Turkish: Racon=
the accepted way of doing sth. this is one of the most important thing in Turkey too.

our soldiers know whats "racon" and are sensible about local customs, local sensivities..

for exemple in Turkey with only one little look to a "wrong" place in a "wrong" time, you can cause a fight.

thats not because we are untolerant people but theres some sensivities, ethichs, morals, local unwritten laws etc.

you have to respect these.

westerners can not do this even with their most ambitious effort.

but we can...

Ethnic groups of Afghanistan
42% Pashtun
27% Tajik
9% Hazara
9% Uzbek
4% Aimak
3% Turkmen
2% Baloch


infact if you look at the Turkic History you can see many old states founded in that area so even with Pashtuns we have great historical connections, the others are already Turkic(tajiks, Hazara etc...)

Big K

Hephthalite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

they are Pashtuns, the hephhalites...wikipedia says the first written source is a Chinese one and states them as a Turkic Tribe.

see there was many tribes, some of them you call "Huns" some of them you call "Oğhuzs" some of them according to some sources "Mongols"

we are all brothers and our blood says us something even in this century...