Officer of Engineers

Australia announced that they are to double their force in Afghanistan which would include the Australian SASR. What other battalions are being considered and what are the ROEs?

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Chimo

gf0012-aust

I'll see if I can get something concrete for you...

gf0012-aust

ROE's subject to OPSEC. I am trying to see if there is a unclass version available. A sanitised version is sometimes released for the press gallery. They are usually pretty inane in substance though.

Australian Government, Department of Defence

Ray

Colonel,

This is a site that could possibly help you to read between the lines and glean some idea as to what they will or can do.

Army Journal Online

The interview with Brig Slater, Commander of the JTF which operated in Timor, gives a glimpse about how the Australians operate, but then I would say Afghanistan is no Timor!

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

gf0012-aust

The afghan combat contingent is very very different from timor leste.

the afghan combat forces are primarily special forces with support by commando elements. Currently 1000+ personnel are in theatre. if you are familiar with Commonwealth OPSEC (in partic UK, NZ and Canada all follow a similar policy to ADF and AustGOv releases) you'll note that the official site is more or less meaningless as far as figures, roles and actual warfighting info.

timor leste involved small special forces units in the opening 72 hrs and then basically became backed up by regulars and reservists. TL also involved opening support with SBS (not the UK SAS as was commonly reported), Irish Rangers and Kiwi SAS.

AustGov policy is similar to UK, Canada and NZ - ie no or minimal information is provided on combat activity.

Aust SAS are operating in a proscribed area, but have also been involved with providing recce attachments for US specforces and regular elements.

There is minimal info that can be included for the public domain,

Ray

I am aware.

I have vast experience in Kashmir!

Timor, if you ask me, is child's play in comparison to Afghanistan or Kashmir.

I was leading Colonel to understand the Australian military mind.

I have interacted with Australian military officers. Good chaps.

gf0012-aust

Thats excellent news.

The relationship with India is becoming far more open and closer, so IMV thats a healthy thing.

Certainly in the last few months the Indian Govt has made it very clear that they want the relationship to be closer and have sought australian support on issues such as AP6 as part of the "conversation" stage.

I think you can anticipate a progressive series of announcements regarding India and Aust (and Japan)

On a small note, even during the grey days when India "visibly" reduced her diplomatic mission to Oz in protest over NPT statements, she quietly requested that backdoor diplomatic links be maintained as she did not want to sever links. One of my relatives was the aust gov contact who was based in New Delhi and used as the link.

Like all Govts, the public statements don't necessarily reflect the attitude that permeates in reality.

I'm personally glad to see things back on track. I'm keen to get back again and see how much Mumbai and Pune have changed in the last 4 years.

Officer of Engineers

My understanding is that the Australian SASR will operate under CENTCOM and SOCOM but the regforce will operate under Dutch OREs.

In short, Canadians, Brits, and Americans will be dying alone.

gf0012-aust

My understanding is that the bulk of the force are in combat areas working in socom/centcom related roles. that includes SASR and the commando element. It also includes 5th Aviation Reg, who are more or less SASR's private air force component. Centcom/SOCOM have asked for SASR small teams to be involved with US elements as JTACs etc....

The reconstruction elements are under the dutch, but that would be less than 30%.

70% combat, 30% hearts and minds.

thats unconfirmed. I'd have to say that the bulk of people I know over there are day to day "operators" and not involved in reconstruction, hearts and minds etc.....

Officer of Engineers

GF,

That's the problem. My post was to elicit a response. Any military commitment has to meet two criterias. It has to be visible AND it has to be viable. The Australian commitment is one or the other (Australian SAS or the Dutch PRT) but not both.

Not only do you need to take out the Taliban but you must be seen taking out the Taliban. That is the only way those PRTs will work.

gf0012-aust

i don't disagree with you at all. returning SASR have made it very clear that they support an increased presence.

Officer of Engineers

So can you expalain to me why is Australia scared about making the intent public - that to kill the Taliban no matter what the costs?

gf0012-aust

No idea. what we're dealing with at the decision making level is the political animal. There certainly has not been resistance by the military to increase involvement - and in a bizaare and strange twist of circumstances, the opposition party are also supportive of ADF presence in afghanistan. (Opposition party in Aust are politically similar to the idealogical footprint of the US Democrats).

we do have a military that is severely depopulated at the moment, eg half the subs are unable to be crewed, some of the OPV's are not sailing etc.... There is a huge push at the moment to increase staffing levels in army and RAN are also in a dire strait. The manure has not yet hit the fan at the public awareness level of how run down our active levels are. retention levels are shocking as we are in the middle of a resources boom - and eg a diesel mechanic can make $125k per annum, a dogsbody can make at least $75k pa without too much effort. Its a normal trend when the economy is healthy for australian military rectruitment to take a hiding.

there are more yellow cab drivers in new york than we have for the entire personnel count for ADF. that might give you some perspective of how ugly the numbers are.

there are a whole pile of other issues, but I'd rather not talk about them and appear to be an apologist for the current ills.

Ray

Are you an Anglo Indian?

Great chaps!

Ray

Colonel,

The elections are due!

Even Bush is subdued from those days when he landed on the aircraft carrier with Mission Accomplished and all that stuff about smoking ObL out dead or alive.

Politicians are pragmatic cats with nine lives, the world over!

I don't take them seriously.

Australia has a small army. Therefore, even if it says that it will double the show, it is just a drop in the ocean when you look at a problem like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Right now, since there is so little information in the public forum, that one feels that Afghanistan is bumbling along merrily and quite rudderless.

I sure hope that is not the case.