Can Pakistan Be Neutered?

S2 · 30 Oct 09,, 13:44

The war in Afghanistan is one where we are treating-very, very badly, the symptom.

The disease is just to the east.

What would it take to TREAT the disease? Can the Pakistani military, most of all it's nuclear weapons, be neutralized or destroyed without them launching a nuclear reprisal on India?

Would we have to use our own strategic assets to do so or can it be done conventionally?

I welcome all speculation on this issue as I'm now convinced that we've little choice but to recognize facts for what they plainly are WRT to Pakistan.

Thanks.

**HillTribe** · 30 Oct 09,, 15:05

Cant believe this my first post here...

One possible scenario would be to have Pakistan as we know it reduced to Pakistan proper i.e. Punjab and Sindh with Baluchistan ceding from the center and FATA and NWFP merged with Afghanistan. In the ensuing chaos their nuclear facilities could be secured and the core materials flown out. That would replace Pakistan with more manageable smaller states in place of the intractable Pakistan the international community currently has to deal with. How this will be brought about is anyone's guess.

S2 · 30 Oct 09,, 15:20

Make your second post up at the MEMBER INTRO board at the top of the home page, please?

We'll know each other soooo much better as a result.

Thanks.

**indian** · 30 Oct 09,, 15:33

Originally Posted by S-2

The war in Afghanistan is one where we are treating-very, very badly, the symptom.

The disease is just to the east.

What would it take to TREAT the disease? Can the Pakistani military, most of all it's nuclear weapons, be neutralized or destroyed without them launching a nuclear reprisal on India?

Would we have to use our own strategic assets to do so or can it be done conventionally?

I welcome all speculation on this issue as I'm now convinced that we've little choice but to recognize facts for what they plainly are WRT to Pakistan.

Thanks.

1)Asks the Chinese about the location of Pakistans nuclear installations(If what one of the mods here said about the Chinese assistance in Pak's nuclear program is correct).Especially about their nuclear warheads

2)Assasinate the scientists who are more most likely to proliferate the technology(other than AQ Khan)

3)Allow the Taliban have a free hand in Punjab(but thats a double edged sword)

**Tronic** · 30 Oct 09,, 16:17

I'm not sure if such an extreme step is necessary. Taking out the top leadership, especially any ISI guys who side with the militants will suffice. Those ISI chaps may wage war against civilians across the border, but they still hold their own lives precious. Start taking them, and you will soon see a change in the Pakistani leadership for good. The problem with the Pak leadership is not that they are radicalized, their problem is that they are heavily corrupted, opportunistic and power hungry people. They are friends with the Taliban only because it makes them feel a bit more influential than they actually are, and gets them some spotlight in the international arena; because, from what I can gather from most Pakistanis is that they aspire to get equal attention to India, even if it means bringing India down, rather than improving Pakistan. Oh, and yes, get the Saudis to spank them a little, they will fall completely in line; because, that is the one country they look up to and are held in aww over.

**HillTribe** · 30 Oct 09,, 16:40

Originally Posted by S-2

Make your second post up at the MEMBER INTRO board at the top of the home page, please?

We'll know each other soooo much better as a result.

Thanks.

I just posted some basic info about myself. I really hope to learn a lot as a member here!

**Parihaka** · 30 Oct 09,, 21:47

The basic paradigm for the ruling elite in Pakistan is that it is simply a cantonment, a position of defence until the 'inevitable collapse' of Hindu-Indian rule, when India's true rulers can once more sally forth from their northern fastness and take command of their inheritance.

As such they have no allegiance with a nation state of Pakistan other than it's serfs provide sustenance for themselves and for the army of reconquest they are trying to assemble, and it's value as a bargaining chip with the international community.
As such, if you wish to control and subdue Pakistan, either give the elite India, or kill them and let the true locals revert to a sort of semi-autonomous self rule with Indian security guarantees.

**Tronic** · 31 Oct 09,, 04:13

Originally Posted by Parihaka

The basic paradigm for the ruling elite in Pakistan is that it is simply a cantonment, a position of defence until the 'inevitable collapse' of Hindu-Indian rule, when India's true rulers can once more sally forth from their northern fastness and take command of their inheritance.

As such they have no allegiance with a nation state of Pakistan other than it's serfs provide sustenance for themselves and for the army of reconquest they are trying to assemble, and it's value as a bargaining chip with the international community.
As such, if you wish to control and subdue Pakistan, either give the elite India, or kill them and let the true locals revert to a sort of semi-autonomous self rule with Indian security guarantees.

You're misreading it all. Its actually the exact opposite! The whine chugging, allegedly pork eating, elitist, educated in a Christian mission school, whose own daughter and grandchildren chose to live in India rather than Pak, was the one person who went on to carve out the Islamic state of Pakistan. Jinnah, the man who for decades was part of the secular Indian National Congress jumped boat and joined the Muslim League when he saw that he would not be able to fulfill his ambitions of coming to power in an Independent India. The Pakistani elite could never be the 'elitists' if they ever became a part of India. For the elites to be elites in Pakistan, they have to make sure the populace is petrified of evil Hindu India, and turns a blind eye to everything else which goes on in their country.

**Parihaka** · 31 Oct 09,, 04:23

Originally Posted by Tronic

The Pakistani elite could never be the 'elitists' if they ever became a part of India. For the elites to be elites in Pakistan, they have to make sure the populace is petrified of evil Hindu India, and turns a blind eye to everything else which goes on in their country.

Hey, I'm not making the claim they're rational

**Michael C** · 31 Oct 09,, 05:27

I dispute the basis of the question, that the disease is to the east. The disease is a cross border cancer of which Pakistan has been hit hard, as Afghanistan was as well. Where is the tumor? Saudi Arabia. It metastasized its radical Wahhibism in the form of extremist madrassas.

Of course, the madrassas speak to why Pakistan is so radicalized. As other have said, the ruling elite use India to ignore the social plight of their country. As Americans, we ignore poverty and repression around the globe so long as it "doesn't serve our interests." (A very cynical me would say that US interests are only business interests and hence only the interests of a minor ruling elite.) Thus, Saudi funded madrassas have sprung up throughout Pakistan to radicalize the country because no one else will pay to help raise up the local Pakistanis.

Why wouldn't Pakistanis hate us if that is all they are taught?

**pChan** · 31 Oct 09,, 06:57

Originally Posted by Michael C

I dispute the basis of the question, that the disease is to the east. The disease is a cross border cancer of which Pakistan has been hit hard, as Afghanistan was as well.

The disease is very much to the east. In fact you can zero in on the GHQ in Rawalpindi & you would have your ground zero. It was the deliberate policy of Zia/PA to radicalize the polity for their own benefits vis-a-vis Kashmir/Afghanistan etc. If they had chosen not to do that, Pak or for that matter the US won't find itself in this situation.

Originally Posted by Michael C

Where is the tumor? Saudi Arabia. It metastasized its radical Wahhibism in the form of extremist madrassas. Of course, the madrassas speak to why Pakistan is so radicalized. As other have said, the ruling elite use India to ignore the social plight of their country. .......

Saudi Arabia has always been the wahhabist cesspool. But notice that the saudi government have favorable policies to the west. They have a LOT of cash to freely throw at for their "pet causes" but they still seem to be smart enough by design or luck or fate to not antagonize the west.

Originally Posted by Michael C

Thus, Saudi funded madrassas have sprung up throughout Pakistan to radicalize the country because no one else will pay to help raise up the local Pakistanis.

Why wouldn't Pakistanis hate us if that is all they are taught?

They have sprung up because they served the "national interests" of PA. The saudi merrily funded it. The question is not "why would they hate us?"..... it is "who is the enemy?" Can the enemy be bought/brought around? What does it take for the enemy to reverse course?

**indian** · 31 Oct 09,, 07:29

Originally Posted by Parihaka

The basic paradigm for the ruling elite in Pakistan is that it is simply a cantonment, a position of defence until the 'inevitable collapse' of Hindu-Indian rule, when India's true rulers can once more sally forth from their northern fastness and take command of their inheritance.

As such they have no allegiance with a nation state of Pakistan other than it's serfs provide sustenance for themselves and for the army of reconquest they are trying to assemble, and it's value as a bargaining chip with the international community.
As such, if you wish to control and subdue Pakistan, either give the elite India, or kill them and let the true locals revert to a sort of semi-autonomous self rule with Indian security guarantees.

The elite are essentially local feudal landlords.They being a part of Pakistan was never a part of the original plan only when Nehru was speaking about socialism and Land reforms they joined the Muslim league until then they had a separate party(unionist party of india which ruled Punjab on the Pakistani side).

**Deltacamelately** · 31 Oct 09,, 07:55

Originally Posted by Michael C

I dispute the basis of the question, that the disease is to the east. The disease is a cross border cancer of which Pakistan has been hit hard, as Afghanistan was as well. Where is the tumor? Saudi Arabia. It metastasized its radical Wahhibism in the form of extremist madrassas.

Of course, the madrassas speak to why Pakistan is so radicalized. As other have said, the ruling elite use India to ignore the social plight of their country. As Americans, we ignore poverty and repression around the globe so long as it "doesn't serve our interests." (A very cynical me would say that US interests are only business interests and hence only the interests of a minor ruling elite.) Thus, Saudi funded madrassas have sprung up throughout Pakistan to radicalize the country because no one else will pay to help raise up the local Pakistanis.

Why wouldn't Pakistanis hate us if that is all they are taught?

Then you are COMPLETELY wrong by a mile and half.
The Paks are not the only country at the receiving end of Saudi money for promoting the Salafi/Wahabi shitcake. But how many countries other than Pakistan have chosen to harbour and USE global terror networks as an instrument for promoting their state policies? How many countries have actually sought to use its own resources as well as the one's they get as "reimbursement" for cleaning their shit, to traumatize a neighbour for more than 4 decades? How many professional militaries have actually indoctrinated their own civilian society into a radicalized bloodthirsty populace, celebrating the death of non-muslims and even contemplating the use of nuclear weapons on their neighbours, even if it means complete annihilation of their own country? (If at all you call it a country)

Don't runaway. While, your so called Amarican "elites" might be indifferent to global poverty, illiteracy etc, they are not using terror networks as a state policy, neither is that country proliferating nuclear tech, while contemplating its use on grounds of religious animosity.

Pakistan indeed is the core disease. One that needs to be cured OR amputed.

S2 · 31 Oct 09,, 08:55

"The disease is a cross border cancer of which Pakistan has been hit hard..."

True enough but that is a perpetuation of an islamist-promoted agenda reaching back to Zia and the consequent blow-back that has arisen from their miscalculation. This agenda pre-dates the Afghan-Soviet war and I offer the burning of the U.S. embassy in Islamabad in late November 1979.

This was an action where JuI (Jamaat-ul-Islami) was the prime suspect and acting at the instigation of Khomeini, whose own forces at only within weeks seized the U.S. embassy in Teheran. He had claimed that an attack in Mecca that same month by SUNNI extremists had been at the behest of the United States. JuI ran with Khomeini's accusations and Zia did nothing to intercede.

One month later the Soviet Union executed it's Afghan designs.

The punjabi elite have used the armed forces of Pakistan as it's private instrument of power. Their officers are EXTREMELY well-rewarded for their endeavors. The intersection of this punjabi civilian elite and the army are particularly obvious at the top echelons of command. Most of their officer corps is drawn from this region. Most of the senior bureaucratic elite the same.

If religion is the opium of the masses, then the Punjabi civil and military elite are the dope-dealers. They thought, I believe, they'd found the vehicle to perpetuate their control within Pakistan. Only now, I also believe, are they BEGINNING to suspect they might have had it wrong.

Ask yourself this question-in the recent strife we've seen where has Nawaz Sharif and his brother been? If you understand the control they exert within the Punjab, you'll appreciate the role they might play in the unrest we've been witnessing.

AWOL. Invisible. Not heard, read, or seen.

The system of leadership and control in Pakistan is fundamentally dysfunctional. It is manifested visibly in many different venues- from the unbalanced distribution favoring Punjab of foreign aid, allocation of preferred civil and military slots, schools, and assignments, to the manipulation of Pakistan's national budget in blatant favor of the Punjab, or the ongoing and long-standing issues of agarian land reform involving the continuing near-feudal grip held by privileged families within the Punjab.

I guess you could submit from all this that I think you've got it wrong.

**Cactus** · 31 Oct 09,, 17:00

Originally Posted by Tronic

You're misreading it all.

Nope, Parihaka is bang on target in his analysis. Of course to a modern Indian all of it sounds quaint and ridiculous, but your views are not the end-all and be-all of the matter. Pakistan was not born just because one man wanted it, nor does it exist simply out of inertia. Pari describes their PoV exactly, but if you want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth:

Beyond Faith - 60 Years of Independence - TIME
Still, many South Asian Muslims insist Islam is the one and only force that can bring the subcontinent together and return it to pre-eminence as a single whole. "We [Muslims] were the legal rulers of India, and in 1857 the British took that away from us," says Tarik Jan, a gentle-mannered scholar at Islamabad's Institute of Policy Studies. "In 1947 they should have given that back to the Muslims." Jan is no militant, but he pines for the golden era of the Mughal period in the 1700s and has a fervent desire to see India, Pakistan and Bangladesh reunited under Islamic rule.

Gentlemen, PLEASE don't start ripping this piece of revisionist history into pieces here. We all know that it is horse-puckey, but do use it to understand how the other side thinks.