Thread: Militants overran observation post in attack that killed 9 US troops

Originally Posted by American Empire

How did the Taliban "overrun" this post. Sure they killed 9 US troops but they got beaten back.

Insurgents who squared off with U.S. soldiers in a major battle in eastern Afghanistan overran a military observation point just outside a coalition outpost, but failed to take the base, a U.S. military official told CNN.

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Originally Posted by Parihaka

Um, I don't know what planet you've been on lately but the US doesn't 'have a foothold' in Iraq, it owns it.

Now that is a dangerous statement.

I don't think that the US govt subscribe to that view officially or even unofficially!

This myth of the noble Arab/Persian warrior driving off the infidel has been shown to be bullshyt no less than three times in the last twenty years. Iraq, Iraq 2 and Afghanistan. With a force of roughly 50,000, the ISAF is taking and holding ground, and as your threads at Pak.Def. are now lamenting is amassing small but effective numbers on the borders of Pakistan itself.
Meanwhile the PA numbers 620,000 active duty soldiers and has thus far lost roughly a third of your country since the Afghan invasion and subsequent flight of the Taliban into the NWFP.

It is true that the US has indeed been successful in Iraq to the extent of defeating the Iraqi Army and is now in a much better position to consolidate the gains after years of insurgency, but Afghanistan is a far cry from being anywhere near to establishing it writ that would indicate that the ISAF has taken a grip over the situation, let alone that its writ runs in the country. The terrorist attack on the US post and the subsequent withdrawal of the US forces does indicate that the situation is not under control and the situation is very iffy! The withdrawal maybe militarily prudent, but it does not give confidence to the uninitiated and more so if one goes by Bluesman's post where he/ the report finds the Pashtuns to have been heroic and intensely brave. Personally, I find this attack very disquieting.

As far as the PA is concerned, I find it extraordinary that they are not pulling their weight. This totally unlike what they are capable of. I feel the religion has got in their way of their military prowess!

As you refer to, the barbarity of AQ in Iraq was extreme, what you are mistaking though was that it at any time was directly aimed at the Americans: it was not.
American casualties were fractional compared to civilian casualties and AQ and the various factions nearly always targeted those civilians. The only way the US forces were stretched was in protecting the civilians from the barbarity of AQI and affiliates. You'll also note the few times the US took direct action to pacify an area by overwhelming force such as Falujah, they did so with total efficiency, a lesson not lost on their enemies.
So, genocide? Preventing the on-going one is more likely. One that the politicians and armed forces in Pakistan are tacitly assisting in Afghanistan, and allowing in the NWFP.

In an insurgency (we will call it so for definition, even though it is unmitigated terrorism), the aim is to break the writ of, and confidence in, the govt. This is achieved by targeting the govt machinery including law enforcement agencies and more so, the soft targets like population at large. This creates panic and thus anger and loss of confidence in the govt and erosion of local support to the govt for the fear of reprisals.

To this extent, in this lies the higher casualties to the civilians.

Barbarism is the signature of terrorists and so the AQ merely lived up to the ethos!

I wonder if GoP is really in control of the country. Though AM may not agree, the writ of the ISI is extra constitutional and they are a State within a State. The Taliban is but the successor to the Mujahideens, which was the ISI's creation. Thus, they do not want to lose the connection and control I reckon and hence are actively assisting. In the bargain, they are also wrecking their own country. The legacy of Zia and his theological twist has ingrained itself in Pakistan and the Nation along with the Born Again pan Islamic awakening is what is inhibiting Pakistan for an all out support.

Both Musharraf and the current GoP are but victims of this unholy mindset and religious zeal that has gripped Pakistan!

Cultural dynamics don't really count when the Taliban shoot the traditional tribal leaders and replace them with their own stooges now do they? Cultural dynamics are important when you wish to control a country, but mean diddly-squat when you invade.

That is correct. Cultural dynamics is not material if one is to conquer a country. However, if I may say so, both Iraq and Afghanistan is not invasions to conquer. It is merely to ensure that there is a govt that functions as per international norms instead of wild and irrational entities that were there before.

Since it is all about setting up a govt and changing the mindset from the unholy one that is present, one does have to be sensitive about the cultural dynamics!

I would like to believe that the US is indeed sensitive to the dynamics. I am aware that they are in Iraq at least.

Yep, let the farmers starve and and totally alienate them. This is the cultural dynamics you want us to adhere to?

I believe there are many avenues being broached to wean away the Afghans from the poppy fields. However, it is proving difficult since their is powerful vested interests at work.

It is a very complex problems with no easy solution.

Given the terrain, the warlord supremacy over govt syndrome where tribal chiefs are a power by themselves, it will take longer than Iraq to make the turbulence settle down.

It will settle down eventually.

Originally Posted by Ray

AM,

With the way the successive Pakistan govt has lost control over these badlands, forays by the ISAF maybe a blessing in disguise and for all you know the govt will give the Nelson's Eye and strong statements for effect.

Pakistan is well aware that the US has no territorial ambitions in Paksitan and so it is safe and hence it is to Pakistan's advantage that these terrorists are controlled and eliminated by the ISAF and there is no hue and cry that Moslems are killing Moslems!

Air strikes have collateral damage, ground action has minimal.

I expressed a similar thought earlier. You brought a point foward I had not considered: The hesitancy of Pak to engage in Muslim on Muslim fighting. But if Pak tacitly allowed ISAF incursions into the badlands rationalizing that Muslims are not fighting Muslims, is that any different in the public's view than allowing others to fight Muslims? Or is there another reason why Pak does not go in and reassert its control over the badlands? Does it have something to do with maintaining its military posture vis a vis India?

All these operations are a blessing in disguise for India

[QUOTE=Ray;517949]

Now that is a dangerous statement.

I don't think that the US govt subscribe to that view officially or even unofficially!

It is easy to do something offically but when you get into unoffically (reality) things get tough.

Or is there another reason why Pak does not go in and reassert its control over the badlands? Does it have something to do with maintaining its military posture vis a vis India?

1. Sir if it tries to do that it will be thrown into Civil war

2. Most of the military personnel hail from that area and they may refuse to face against their own kin its natural

3.If Afghanistan or the badlands become stable the pakistani government may fear that may lose america's aid .Though it is not in the best intrest of the Pakistani people

Had Musharraf refused to help U.S and at the same time adandon the Taliban
and had taken a Neutral stance ,the country may have been much safer and more stable.He took an idiotic decision