Thread: Militants overran observation post in attack that killed 9 US troops

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

To use a much used and abused cliche, change for the sake of change is not necessarily progress.

But that's the whole point AM, things are changing. Your countrymen are mounting company-sized attacks from your side of the border into Afghanistan then crossing back over. Pakistans irregulars have changed the rules whether you like it or not.

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

Considering that NATO has barely managed to control Afghanistan with both troops and air power, I fail to see the advantages from increased cross border strikes and bombings by the US - especially since it is pretty much a given that they will entail collateral damage.

You may have noticed that quite a few troops are going to be freed up in Iraq.
You may also have noticed that the US & NATO basically said 'who gives one' during the recent 'wedding party' fracas. You may also have noticed that while the press in the west wrote it up, the hoi polloi reflected the various adminstrations with a shrug and a 'who cares'. They've got used to such things. They're bored.
Both watershed events, and both indicators of future events that no amount of soporific monologues will deflect. The west is getting ready for a little barbarity of it's own.

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

Like I said, it sounds good, something is being done, but I don't see how it does anything to improve the situation in the long run.

It destroys a threat. And if necessary, the future potential for threat.

Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim

I have fond memories of my trips to the North of Pakistan, a wonderful people and wonderful hospitality - and this was only a few years ago.

A pity the situation has changed so much in so short of a time.

Well yes, firm measures should fix it however.

"How big are these bases? How many troops and what heavy weapons are present?

Are they comparable to a Vietnam era "firebase"?"

Read the "Valley of Death" thread. Excellent stories and film footage of this particular area abound there from last fall. This was about sixty men, supposedly. I suspect a rifle platoon, a fires command element to control mortars, arty, choppers, and fast movers and some ANA interpreters and a few of their troops at best.

As such compared to Vietnam, not in altitude, terrain, threat, nor weather- yet similar. Where we have some symmetry is an isolated position that's been selected based on infiltration patterns and supplied by air. Doing their job by patrolling entails a very high liklihood of contact. Being attacked in prepared positions generally is the preferred state. Being surprised is a complement to the taliban's tactical audacity and acumen. Recovering and winning, outnumbered, is a testament to our courage, skill, training, and perseverance. Our guys didn't quit and they never believed that the rest of their guys elsewhere would quit on them. They got what they needed and held on.

"...anything out of the ordinary in terms of training, weapons or tactics or is this them shooting their wad in one go do you think?"

This was no easy task, even with immense cooperation by the locals, to evacuate an adjacent village's citizens UNOBSERVED- day or night. It could only have happened beginning the previous afternoon or evening and had to be completed before dawn. That's a real missed clue from a village next to our COP. Sorta the whole point, you'd think, until you've seen just a bit of the area. The lines-of-sight suck. Observation to any useful range is often dubious unless across a valley. Problem is that could be five miles away and doesn't do a bit of good for the intervening distance.

Originally Posted by S-2

A platoon's worth of effectives was rendered absolutely out of the fight through the course of the battle so, yeah, it was the real deal. I'm unsure, though, if it's for the worse in the bigger picture.

Yeah, we've seen some troubling things, just since the following day. They're riding purty high, and that translates directly into future trouble.

My first inclination is that, generally, I like my odds if this is to be an emerging trend. Typically, we stand pretty tall when properly dug in and tied into our fire nets.

Generally and typically, I'd agree with you, and that's why I am very concerned about this. Ordinarily, THIS is what we WANT 'em to do. Slug it out with us, Mullah Bagodonutz, and see what THAT gets ya. Well, they stepped up and accepted the offer...and nine guys got dealt a bad hand; fifteen more in various states of 'winged'.

These opportunities to garner enthusiastic recruits have been available up in the Korengal and neighboring valleys for some time and not pursued by the taliban, to my knowledge. Not on our side of the border anyway. Rocket and mortar fire, yeah. Occasional small-arms into a compound, yeah. But not an assault on a combat outpost-daylight to boot.

Kick-off was at 0200L. And before the opening number, they managed to get HMGs into over-looking positions and @ 30 guys almost up to the wire. THAT takes skill and helluva lot ' moxie. Frankly, when I read the whole brief, I was somewhat impressed.

Oh, and lest anybody think that this outfit was slack or not paying attention, I can assure you that even with the Yanks having some good gouge on enemy CoAs, the Bad Guys STILL almost went even-up against first-rate American infantry.

I suppose that I feel better when these fcuks meet their maker up in those hills instead of down in the towns and farm villages further inland. It's a very good place for them to die. I think that this was unusual, though there will be lessons-learned out of the AARs.

I agree with you here: this WAS unusual, and I, also, want 'em to keep throwing themselves into the concertina and American firepower.

But I tell ya, man: if there is some means, method or tool that these mooks have hit on to allow this to be anything but a fluke, an anomoly, then I'm VERY concerned this will get away from us. Frankly, I don't believe it: we're just better than they are, and I bet you're right: we'll learn from this, and the next time they try this, we'll be doing the bodycount of their dead by multiplying how many sets of remains fit in a front-loader by how many scoops it takes to get 'em all into the hole.

Parihaka's right, though (as usual). It's all about Pakistan. We've got, maybe, fifteen companies scattered up and down that border in CJTF-101's A.O. The Pakistani XII Corps w/ 80,000 troops is thirty miles away in Peshawar.

What's wrong with this picture?

I believe that, too: the road to victory in Afghanistan goes through Pakistan. I don't advocate an invasion of an ally...but if that border is NOT dealt with...

ÀM,

What is your suggestion if one does not go for the sanctuaries?

If one does not go for the sanctuaries, then those sanctuaries will only grow in strength and become a greater nest from where they would launch forays across the Durand Line. The number of forays thus will increase and the strength (number of personnel) in such forays would be greater!

Are you suggesting that the US troops just hunker down in their posts and allow the terrorist to launch against them and buy casualties?

At least the Americans have the freedom to launch forays (or, should I say they could not care less what anyone has to say). The IA in Kashmir is hamstrung just because hot pursuits and cross LC forays are not allowed. If it were, then the terrorists would have to guard their own bases and hence there would be less people available to launch forays!

It is always easy to inflict casualties in Bases and post, compared to causing casualties on moving columns. If the terrorists are caught within their bases and the casualties are much, it will impose caution on them and they would not be so audacious as they are now. What Bluesman has written on the attack is just what we experience.

It will also frustrate the terrorists since dying without a fight is not what one would like to do!

Jail-break in Kandahar. Indian Embassy in Kabul. COP assaulted in Kunar. That's about the last month. "Tet" like in their audacity, high profile, and preparedness to sacrifice troops to reach certain elements of this fight. The political message transcends the military here.

For that message to sustain and grab hold, they'll have to begin replicating these ops and expand the geographic scope more. Discrete still. Perhaps not for long?

Originally Posted by S-2

Jail-break in Kandahar. Indian Embassy in Kabul. COP assaulted in Kunar. That's about the last month. "Tet" like in their audacity, high profile, and preparedness to sacrifice troops to reach certain elements of this fight. The political message transcends the military here.

For that message to sustain and grab hold, they'll have to begin replicating these ops and expand the geographic scope more. Discrete still. Perhaps not for long?

Exactly on-target. That jailbreak was VERY audacious, and even heroic. Same thing for the other two ops.

I'm reminded of some of our own country's exploits, and I see a parallel with Francis Marion's operations, John Mosby, Butch and Sundance. These guys are seen the same way, and we're the hapless recoats, yankees and train guards. I am NOT saying I admire these cut-throat savage bastards. But the hill-folk DO, and that's what counts.

My point is simple, and I think you agree with me: this is the sort of thing that builds momentum, and everytime they pull off something big like this, it looks like they got our number, that Gawd is on their side, and that they're the wave of the future.

We gotta derail this train, NOW.

"My point is simple, and I think you agree with me: this is the sort of thing that builds momentum, and everytime they pull off something big like this, it looks like they got our number, that Gawd is on their side, and that they're the wave of the future."

Yeah, but it's localized with the Pashtu. Brigandry, dope-dealing, and both a legacy and continuing thriving small-arms cottage industry doesn't bode well for a cultural perspective of mankind. Pashtunwali may have it's place amongst them but the ethics behind it are quite less than noble. Deobandism has been corrupted by the Wahabbists, and it was never specifically pacific anyway. The Pashtu people are far closer to Mullah Omar and Baitullah Mehsud than us, the GoP, or the GoA. The GoA and ourselves are prepared to drag them into the 21st century, kicking and scratching all the way. The GoP has acquiesced their sovereign rights to govern the area and live in a dream. They're next and, if it's possible, we should do everything to deflect the bastards onto them.

Guys over on SWJ are suggesting that Tajik and Uzbek trainers have incurred huge losses while working w/ the taliban. They've been replaced by junior officers seconded from the P.A. We've had F.C. troops murder a U.S. Army major at the border. We rarely see the P.A. leave the barracks except for over-publicized and under-effective ops and nary since the elections worth mentioning. Oh! Except the recent liberation of Peshawar.

That says it all. We're at war with the Pashtus and, quite probably, Pakistan. I suggest punitive exigency as appropriate. We glaze the region, salt the ground and render it uninhabitable.

Originally Posted by S-2

[B]
We glaze the region, salt the ground and render it uninhabitable.

certainly has historical precedence.

I wonder if it has anything to do with Pashtunwali and the Code.

It is just that they have been fired up by the worldwide pan Islamism and the propaganda that Islam is under attack; and that the US and George Bush is its fountainhead.

Even the majority of Pakistan believe so, rendering the GoP a mute spectator! The feeble effort by the PA and the total fear crazed hunkering down of the FC is indicative of dissension amongst the ranks in the interpretation of Islam and Nation. To bank on the Pakistani law and order enforcing arms to rid Pakistan of these vermin is asking for too much.

The influence of the Tablighi, a Deobandi outfit on Pakistanis cannot be underestimated. Nawaz Sharif is a member of the Tablighi. Therefore, what can be expected of Paksitan?

Paksitan will never abdicate her dream to have power over Afghanistan. It is not only for strategic depth, but also to neutralise her greatest fear - Pakhtoonistan where Pashtun areas of Pakistan, unwittingly divided by a deluded bureacrat Mortimer Durand, are once again united. This would shrink Pakistan into a postage stamp sized nation. And what is even more dangerous is that even areas of Balochistan is claimed by the Pashtuns!

In turn it will give all the secessionist parties an impetus to include Balochistan and the Northern Area which is Shia country! And of curse, the Sindhis and MQM. If they all succeed, then what would be Pakistan? Just Punjab!!

Thus, Pakistan cannot allow this to happen.

What better an option is there but running with the hares and hunting with the hounds?

Ideal way to keep disaster from overcoming Pakistan is to allow a free hand to the terrorists and also assist them covertly through the ISI, which already has made inroads and established itself from the time of the Mujahideens. After all, Taliban is but a cosmetic name change for the Mujahideens of yore!

Originally Posted by Parihaka

certainly has historical precedence.

Where?

That would be too drastic.

It would be better to encourage Pakhtoonistan.

Let them destroy themselves since the mindset that seems to be etched in stone is - self destruct!

Unless they accept the concept of a Nation over Islam, they will end up in a heap of rubble - done by their own hands!

"certainly has historical precedence."

Uh, yeah, there's a certain timeless, old-testament(whoops!) quality to the notion. Perhaps, sadly, a practical need as well.

I've just about concluded that they're beyond reaching and deserve the fullest measure of war.

Originally Posted by Ray

Where?

Carthage

Originally Posted by Ray

That would be too drastic.
It would be better to encourage Pakhtoonistan.

Let them destroy themselves since the mindset that seems to be etched in stone is - self destruct!

Unless they accept the concept of a Nation over Islam, they will end up in a heap of rubble - done by their own hands!

One of the niceties of absorbing/being absorbed by Maori culture is the concept that the land maketh the man. That the geographic nature of the place in which you are raised fashions who you are.
I'm not advocating wiping the Pashtuns out by any stretch: making their current lands uninhabitable and resettling them in lands more conducive to civility toward their fellow man and a more peaceful and prosperous outlook appeals. Given modern sensibilities it will remain but a personal wishful thought.