Thread: Why the torpedo tube variations?

"One of the other crazy things I noticed was that Improved-Akulas and Akula II's were supposed to be fitted with "external torpedo tubes." What on earth are those and how are they supposed to work?"
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These are used for torpedo decoys. I dont know exactly how they work.

But if I rember correctly external tubes have been used before in limited applications. They would not be reloadable or fixable at sea.

The Los Angeles class Tomahawk missle tubes are external to the pressure hull.

"Was running some searches on various submarines, and noticed that torpedo tubes for US subs have gone from 533 to 660 mm (four tubes on 688's and EIGHT on Sea Wolves), and Russian subs have gone from 533 to 650 mm. Why the sudden variation, if US subs are still using the Mk 48 ADCAP, and are any modifications/alterations necessary to launch the Mk48 from the larger tubes, say, like a SABOT-like casing? Are US subs now expected to engage more targets simultaneously? I also noticed some Russian subs loaded with both 533 and 650 mm tubes."

AFAIK the LA class only has 533mm tubes as do the new Virginia class.

The Seawolf class tubes were originally described as 762mm but with liners and fittings this is reduced to 673mm. If I remember correctly they were built anticipating future operation of remote operated recon vehicles and also larger weapons.

Ive read more on this some years ago. Ill see if I can find anything handy.

The Russians use theirs for larger sized weapons.

With regards to any "sabot" type wrappings this might shed a little light. This blurb is from the training center.:



SSN Torpedo Room Training
Device 21H23

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Torpedo Room Trainer is equipped to train personnel from both SSN688 and SSN21 class submarines. It's major components consists of:

SSN688 MK67 torpedo tube without muzzle door, a fixed position pivot tray, hydraulic rammer and is capable of loading a MK48 torpedo or Tomahawk missile.
SSN21 MK69 Part Task Trainers, i.e. Breech end torpedo tube including Interlock Mechanism, Stop Bolt and Flow Restrictor Mechanism.
Pressure Vent Control Trainer consisting of a control unit and a 4 foot section of a Tomahawk capsule.
One of each major mechanical component is bench mounted for student teardown.
Internal Auxiliary Launcher (IAL) 3" SSN688 type.
Internal Auxiliary Launcher (IAL) 6" SSN21 type.

Training includes loading MK48/ADCAP and Tomahawk Missiles in the MK67 torpedo tube. A MK48/ADCAP MK10 Torpedo Mounted Dispenser (TMD) or the 4 foot section of the Tomahawk capsule can be loaded into the MK69 torpedo tube. Training includes attachment of the electrical/pneumatic umbilical penetrators and operation of the interlock mechanism.


NAVAIR Orlando Training Systems Division

So whats the design principle for external torpedo tubes? More safety??

And AFAIK, most of the torpedoes are 533mm including most of the SLCM. Incase the dia changes, would they have 2 different mm tubes in the Sub, one to launch regular Torpedoes and the other for the newer,larger weapons??

ok more answers...

# Four (4) 25.6 Inch (650 mm) Super Heavy Internal Torpedo Tubes:
On the bow of the submarine are four internal extra large torpedo tubes. Tubes are 25.6 Inch (650 mm) wide and torpedoes can be used only against surface ships. This tubes can be fitted with special liners to allow for the use of 21 inch (533 mm) Torpedoes. Along with standard torpedoes, launcher can also fire missiles in special canisters and rocket boosted ASW torpedoes. Submarine normally carries 6 reloads for torpedoes (Can be replaced by the smaller torpedoes and missiles)
Maximum Effective Range: 40 miles (64 km)
Mega Damage: 25.6 Inch (650 mm) inflict 8D6x10. If using liner and using 21 inch (533 mm) Torpedoes then treat warheads as long range missile warheads (See Robotech RPG book), can fire long range missiles in special canisters as well.
Rate of fire: One at a time or in volleys of 2, 3, or 4. Reloading takes 1 full melee
# Payload: 6 Total (Can be replaced by the smaller torpedoes and missiles).

Four (4) 21 inches (533 mm) Heavy Internal Torpedo Tubes:
On the bow of the submarine are four internal heavy torpedo tubes. Tubes are 21 inches (533 mm) wide and torpedoes can be used against both surface ships and submarines. For warheads, heavy torpedoes should be treated as having long missiles warheads. Along with standard torpedoes, launcher can also fire missiles in special canisters and rocket boosted ASW torpedoes. Submarine carries 18 reloads for torpedoes.
Maximum Effective Range: 40 miles (64 km)
Mega Damage: Treat warheads as long range missile warheads (See revised missile table), can fire missiles in special canisters as well.
Rate of fire: One at a time or in volleys of 2, 3, or 4. Reloading takes 1 full melee
# Payload: 4 Total (Has 18 torpedoes for reloads, Can be boosted to 24 by eliminating 650 mm torpedoes)

Six (6) 21 inches (533 mm) Heavy External Torpedo Tubes:
On the bow of the submarine are six external heavy torpedo tubes. Tubes are 21 inches (533 mm) wide and most often mount missiles in canisters but may carry other warheads as well.
Maximum Effective Range: 40 miles (64 km)
Mega Damage: Treat warheads as long range missile warheads (See revised missile table), can fire missiles in special canisters as well.
Rate of fire: One at a time or in volleys of 2, 3, 4, or 6. Reloading takes 1 full melee
Payload: 6 Total.
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Robotech..._Submarine.htm



4x533 mm torpedo tubes for:
- VA-111 Shkval asw torps; range 2-3nm/200kts ; length 8.2m
- SAET-60M antiship torps; range 8nm@40kts/7nm@42kts; length 7.8m
- 53-65K oxygen torps; range 9nm@45kts; length 7.95m
- 81-R Viyuga (SS-N-15) rocket-launched torpedo

4x650 mm torpedo tubes for:
- 65-76 steam-gas antiship torps; range 27nm@50kts; length 11m
- 86-R (SS-N-16) antisub missiles

Source: "Warships of the USSR and Russia 1945-1995," by A.S. Pavlov,
1995, Yakutsk, Russia, translated and published 1997 by the Naval
Institute in 1997.

As to why Akula II's have external torpedos,

This submarine then went into production, the first boats being laid down in October 1982. The Russian Navy were astonished to find that Project 971 was a very close approximation to the Project 945 design in performance terms
while Project 945 was significantly more expensive to build and even more so to maintain. As a result (to the fury of the Lazurit Design Bureau), Project 971 was adopted as the future general purpose submarine of the Soviet Navy. The only real deficiency of the Project 971 class as opposed to Project 945 was the smaller number of reloads (a total of 32 weapons as opposed to 40).

The designers were asked to do something about this. They did it by adding six extra external 53 cm torpedo tubes between the pressure hull and the outer casing. These accommodated the S-10 Granat cruise missiles, leaving
the internal torpedo room clear for torpedoes and missiles. Overall, the
number of weapons was increased from 32 to 38. Most importantly, the number of strategic cruise missiles carried could be increased from two to eight (Soviet and Russian practice is to restrict nuclear weapons to the external torpedo tubes where their security can be guaranteed). At a time when the availability of the Soviet/Russian SSBN fleet was becoming questionable, this was of significant value. Other detail improvements were made including the provision of new, non-acoustic sensor systems that used infrared detectors to pick up the changes in water temperature caused by submarine wakes (this equipment was backfitted to earlier submarines of the type). In this configuration, the design became Project 971U. Production shifted to the new variant after the first brigade of seven Project 971 class
submarines had been completed.

The above is by Stuart Slade

"The designers were asked to do something about this. They did it by adding six extra external 53 cm torpedo tubes between the pressure hull and the outer casing. These accommodated the S-10 Granat cruise missiles, leaving
the internal torpedo room clear for torpedoes and missiles. Overall, the
number of weapons was increased from 32 to 38. Most importantly, the number of strategic cruise missiles carried could be increased from two to eight (Soviet and Russian practice is to restrict nuclear weapons to the external torpedo tubes where their security can be guaranteed)."

That would make my Combat Fleets in error that they are used for " 6 533-mm external bow tubes for 12 MG-104 and/or MG-114 programmable torpedo decoys(2 per tube)" in error.

Ill have to check into that.

Originally Posted by rickusn

"The designers were asked to do something about this. They did it by adding six extra external 53 cm torpedo tubes between the pressure hull and the outer casing. These accommodated the S-10 Granat cruise missiles, leaving
the internal torpedo room clear for torpedoes and missiles. Overall, the
number of weapons was increased from 32 to 38. Most importantly, the number of strategic cruise missiles carried could be increased from two to eight (Soviet and Russian practice is to restrict nuclear weapons to the external torpedo tubes where their security can be guaranteed)."

That would make my Combat Fleets in error that they are used for " 6 533-mm external bow tubes for 12 MG-104 and/or MG-114 programmable torpedo decoys(2 per tube)" in error.

Ill have to check into that.

I question the source. I think this may be a link to a database to a game.

The first part was.

But I dont know about the Stuart Slade part which I was quoting.

Even Staurt Slade is also a little dodgy..looks like he was an Aerospace analyst with Janes...So I very much doubt the validity of the data.

But the explanation was palusible, hence I posted it

Originally Posted by rickusn

That would make my Combat Fleets in error that they are used for " 6 533-mm external bow tubes for 12 MG-104 and/or MG-114 programmable torpedo decoys(2 per tube)" in error.

There are other sources which claim the same...


ARMAMENT: 4 bow 650-mm TT (Type 86R and 88R/SS-N-16 Stallion missiles and/or Type 65-76 torpedoes); 4 bow 533-mm TT (Type 83RN and 84RN/SS-N-15 Starfish and RPK-55 Granat/SS-N-21 Sampson missiles; USET-80 torpedoes; mines); 1 shoulder-launched SAM syst. (18 Strela-2M or Igla-M missiles). 6 533-mm external tubes for MG-104 and MG-114 programmable torpedo decoys.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...nd+Akula&hl=en

1st) There is no 971A, 971M, 971U or anything like that. 971 project has not been officially separated.

2nd) Those sources are wrong. Look at the picture below, you can clearly see that countermeasures launchers (upper line) are smaller than top 533mm TA line (probably 400mm as before).

p.s. A little "experts" quiz using the same photo: Do you know what are the things located on upper forward side of the sail?

Great pic lurker.

Havent seen a good close up of any Russian submarine like that since 1980. When USN fast attacks routinely entered USSR harbors and snapped them.

So then to clarify:

The external tubes were never 533mmm and always held countermeasures vice weapons?

Thanks Rick

"p.s. A little "experts" quiz using the same photo: Do you know what are the things located on upper forward side of the sail? "

I have seen speculation but not a definitive answer.

Please enlighten us!!!!!!!!!!!!!

whoa, you havent seen any closeup pics??









Enjoy them!!

Hmm, Lurker, what are you referring to?? Are those some kind of missiles or sensors ?? Or the 3 little protruding thin thats on the forward side?