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Thread: Project 885 Yasen vs. NSSN Virginia

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    Banned raptor1992's Avatar
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    Project 885 Yasen vs. NSSN Virginia

    i heard that the russians are building a Severodvinsk class submarine that claims to be better than the NSSN. i don't have enough info to comfirm this and what do you think would win 1 on 1?

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    The Russians claim that everything they have and ever will build is better then the US counter-part. It certainly doesn't mean or even make it probable that it's true.

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    Banned raptor1992's Avatar
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    is there any info about it

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    Military Professional Sandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raptor1992
    is there any info about it
    Better in some tangible, significant way? I doubt it. They don't have the cash to throw at a submarine superiority race as they once did. I don't doubt it is good, but not "better" in any important significance. The USN is flush with cash relatively speaking, and won't accept any sort of inferiority on a submarine basis. Too much rests on the US being superior in undersea warfare, or at least equal. That is just a fact.

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    Guys, it's not the boats. It's the crews.

    Great sonar, weapons and technology don't mean jack unless the crew knows how to actually sail the dang boat without killing themselves in the process.


    But in case, Sandman is correct.
    The Russians don't have to cash to put this boat in the water, work it and her crew up, and keep 'em in shape.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    But from a technical pov, its always easier to be a late adopter. And considering that NSSN used COTS stuff, the Russian military can probably get a lot closer than they were during the cold war. How do they organise development these days? Has it been largely commercialised like aircraft design? Is there someone trying to develop better SSNs so they can sell to Russia and China?

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    Russian cruise missiles and torpedos

    Well...I do not know regarding the noise levels - project 971 Shchuka is said to be quieter than Los Angeles class - and 885 Yasen isplanned to be quieter than Shchuka, but Russian cruise missiles are generally faster and more lethal than relatively slow US harpoon and tomahawk - 800-880 km.hr. If Yasen is armed with SS-N-19 Granit, like the Project Antey 949II or the Kirov-class cruisers, the missile will go at about 1,600 km/hr at ranges 500-600 km...US tomahwk of course can go 1,000 km and a bit more...but at 840-880 km/hr max this will take a long time...there are many air defense batteries that can/ should be able to stop such a cruise missile - S-300 variants, Buk-M1, Pantsyr. Ha the US developed anything that can stop SS-N-19...what if Yasen is armed with SS-N-22 Sunburn (Moskit) or with the equally lethal Yakhont or SS-N-27 Club--S Navator?...Not to mention V-111 Squall superfast torpedo? But once, again, these give up range - Moskit is 120 km, Novator Club-S is 220 km.

    Regarding Russian vs. American military tech....this is impossible to compare all together....Russians for example have developed T-80 tank that can shoot anti-tank rockets - more power than shells - at 5 km...they did it in 1980-81..US is still trying to do that...S-300 variants have performed better than Patriot, the Russian AA missiles are generally faster and longer range (ofcourse the US Phoenix is very powerful on both counts).....we know the trouble the Space Shuttle program is facing, and the hard but unsuccesful US attempts to have a long-term space station, whereas Russians had Soyuiz and Mir for long terms....need one remind of the "Stealth" F-117 visibility to Russian-made 1970s radrs in 1999 over Serbia?
    Last edited by lroz; 20 Jul 06, at 21:53.

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    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lroz
    Regarding Russian vs. American military tech....this is impossible to compare all together....Russians for example have developed T-80 tank that can shoot anti-tank rockets - more power than shells - at 5 km..they did it in 1980-81..US is still trying to do that...
    Also much more expensive than shells.

    S-300 variants have performed better than Patriot,
    In what engagements?

    What Russian SAM is as good as the SM-3, a Mach 9+ interceptor? With a kinetic energy warhead?

    the Russian AA missiles are generally faster and longer range (ofcourse the US Phoenix is very powerful on both counts).....
    Changed with F-22A's introduction, which boosts weapon range through supercruise.

    we know the trouble the Space Shuttle program is facing,
    By any objective analysis, the fruits of the Space Shuttle programme have been obscenely superior to the Buran.

    and the hard but unsuccesful US attempts to have a long-term space station, whereas Russians had Soyuiz and Mir for long terms....
    What do you call the International Space Station?

    Having a long-term space station might be impressive. It might also indicate that you're too poor to replace it.

    need one remind of the "Stealth" F-117 visibility to Russian-made 1970s radrs in 1999 over Serbia?
    One stealth aircraft was shot down due to arrogant planning, not 1970s radar.

    The B-2's presence was only known once the bombing started.

    You've cherry-picked some mostly refutable examples of superior Russian technology. I present these.

    Nuclear weapons
    Thermonuclear weapons
    Weapon accuracy - everything from JDAM to the Peacekeeper to the M-16
    Stealth technology
    Going to the Moon... six times.
    Going to the gas giants... four times.
    The F-22, SR-71, F-117 and B-2.

    I've run out of breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by lroz
    Well...I do not know regarding the noise levels - project 971 Shchuka is said to be quieter than Los Angeles class - and 885 Yasen isplanned to be quieter than Shchuka, but Russian cruise missiles are generally faster and more lethal than relatively slow US harpoon and tomahawk - 800-880 km.hr. If Yasen is armed with SS-N-19 Granit, like the Project Antey 949II or the Kirov-class cruisers, the missile will go at about 1,600 km/hr at ranges 500-600 km...US tomahwk of course can go 1,000 km and a bit more...
    Try at least 1,600km.

    but at 840-880 km/hr max this will take a long time...there are many air defense batteries that can/ should be able to stop such a cruise missile - S-300 variants, Buk-M1, Pantsyr.
    Which is why the US has plenty of S/DEAD systems.

    Ha the US developed anything that can stop SS-N-19...what if Yasen is armed with SS-N-22 Sunburn (Moskit) or with the equally lethal Yakhont or SS-N-27 Club--S Navator?...
    SM-2, ESSM, and SeaRAM, etc, the question has been beaten to death multiple times on these forums.

    Considering the Patriot PAC-2 intercepted Scuds during the 2003 Iraq War with almost perfect accuracy, I imagine the PAC-3 could do even better against those.

    Not to mention V-111 Squall superfast torpedo? But once, again, these give up range - Moskit is 120 km, Novator Club-S is 220 km.
    And the Shkval is what, 10km?
    Last edited by HistoricalDavid; 20 Jul 06, at 22:42.

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    Back to the topic. Lol.

    I am by no means an expert, but...

    The current Russian subs in process are nothing more than a restart of old programs that were shelved due to lack of funds. This was a direct comment from a Russian poster on another forum (Stratpage, I think). IOW, 1980's technology. And this poster was a Russian sub expert, not an Internet warrior. So while he didn't make all kinds of wild claims, he was honest and critical enough to be credible to GF0012, who I have learned over time to listen carefully to.

    If GF0012 reads this, he can correct me, this is his specialty.

    Being quieter than a 688 class underway is no great feat. I think there are several AIP boats that can make that claim. The 688 Improved is a different story.

    The Virginia and SeaWolf class subs are said to be quieter at flank speed than a 688i sitting at the dock. Both types make extensive use of active noise cancellation technologies. Their Sonars can also pinpoint the crews voices inside a Kilo. Think about that for a moment.

    The Kilo is commonly referred to as the "Black Hole of the Ocean" by it's fans. I have heard it compared to an "underwater freight train" by people who are in the position to know the facts.

    So people can make their own judgements as they please, but imo, and from what I have heard from people who are experts, nothing even comes close to the Virginia and Seawolf boats in terms of sensors and stealth.

    In terms of weapons, we haven't really seen what Granits, Russian torps, and such can do, so all you can compare is the size of the warhead. I'd love to see some videos- doesn't Russia do Sinkexes? (they sure have enough targets)

    I've seen what a MK48 ADCAP can do, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the receiving end.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    SRB
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    Come on guys dont expect that anyone say that it technology is weaker that "enemy" technology.
    Exapmle I watch some US sub-man who say that they always could find Typhoons and kill it, and than could kill even Akulas which protect Typhoon, so US Los Angeles could kill to Soviet subs and get out(something like one LA vs. 3 soviet subs)

    Than I read on net some Russian sub-man that Typhoons were never detected. So who you can what is a truth?

    Than I read posts of some US ex-sailor which was on destroyer and he post that old Victor was problem for them in some ocasions, and he said that it was surely because of crew on Victor, when crew was green they would find Victor without problem but if it was old seawolf crew than they will have problems.
    So if old Victor with good crew is deadly what about Akula with good crew?
    Or SeaWolf with good crew?

    Remeber of Soviet submarine incident in 80's near US coast? If it melt down Florida will became big glowing state. So who this sub get so close to US coast?

    Also I watch some old guy form USN intel which said that Soviets had free hand in possible nuclear war because they have navy codes and know location of US subs.

    Dont belive in stories like "underwater freight train", and Kilo isnt nuclear sub so it is stealther than nuke beacuse nuke have turbine which is very noiser. Any battery sub is very quiet.

    Buran was better than Space Shuttle but both ships are stupid. And if someone here start to confront about Buran with me, before that read about Energia booster and about cpus in Buran and in Shuttle (386 vs 186 (XT)) about memory(RAM cartrige vs. 5,25"floppy) jet plane vs. glider, Liquid fuel vs. Solid fuel, catapult seats vs. nothing (there is a theory that Discovery crew could be safe if they had catapult seats it is only a theory). And dont foget Soviets had planty of time to study US Space Shutle, but as idea Shuttle was revolution, it is real space ship.
    US only win Soviets with Saturn 5 rocket until Energia with four engines (cargo over 100 tones)

    In rocket engine techology Soviets today Russians are still world rulers.
    In life in space Soviets are much better than anyone else.Their cosmomans been in space more than anyone else,they study space medicine much before anyone else,their suits are full pressured, they have recycle water systems (which US had only in labs) Iternational station use so many Soviet tech, and today it were dependeble on Soyuz ships.
    And what is a reason for this space life adavantage, well they lost race to moon so they want to win in race to Mars, so they start to experiment with space station not just as labs and spy system they look and study human life in space.

    In other things west is better than Russia (this was hard to say but it is de facto)
    Last edited by SRB; 21 Jul 06, at 00:26.

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    Lol. SRB, I was only relating what I understand from people who are in the know. As I said, I am not an expert in subs.

    The fact that the current Russian projects are restarts of previous projects is undisputed.

    Regarding the Kilos and AIP, there are many things on a submarine that make noise besides pumps. Propellers, vibration, air circulation, crew, etc. Conventional wisdom says the pumps are the noisiest thing on a nuke boat, but the new subs (Virginia and Seawolf class) do not need pumps for cooling, they have natural circulation reactors. This means the pumps can be secured when they need to run quiet (Ohio class can do this also). As I mentioned, they also make extensive use of active noise cancellation.

    Technologically, these subs are 20 years (or more) ahead of anything currently under construction in Russia.

    I won't comment on aerospace here, this is a sub thread.
    Last edited by highsea; 21 Jul 06, at 01:12.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Francois
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    be careful, SRB is a "specialist", like Internet has thousands!

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    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lroz
    Russians for example have developed T-80 tank that can shoot anti-tank rockets - more power than shells - at 5 km...they did it in 1980-81..US is still trying to do that...
    Uhh, no we're not because it's a stupid idea.

    -dale

  14. #14
    Officer of Engineers
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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    I'd love to see some videos
    We've seen one. At least the results of one. And it was damned ugly I have to say - the KURSK.

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    The Russians we're never better with subs.During the cold war they had to deploy so many SSBN's because our subs and sosus sonar constantly tracked them.We've always had the acoustic advantage. The virginia is supposed to be as quiet as the seawolf and trident is quiter than the seawolf. 4 Trident's are going for conventional service.RUssians are all talk and no action with their claims.I doubt they could fund this let alone have their sailors well trained for this sub.

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