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Thread: US Navy Historical Fleet

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    US Navy Historical Fleet

    I thought I would start a new thread to cover some items that have been discussed in other threads. But, they tend to wander a little off the original subjects.

    To start off, I am looking for comments on the following. Some shipmates and members of veteran crews of some museum ships have begun talking about solutions to perils faced by our museum ships. The first and most significant is "hull maintenance". I have mentioned in another thread about using a decom'd dry dock for the museum ships. Then, a shipmate of mine posted a comment on the Naval Historical Foundation site that spelled it out pretty good.
    So here is the bulk of his comment:

    As the article notes, nearly every museum ship needs is a visit to a dry dock. Problem is that all commercial dry docks charge dearly for every minute that a ship occupies that space. What the Historic Fleet really needs is a dry dock that can accommodate the special requirements of museum ships. It will take substantially longer to survey restoration requirements and organize volunteers. But a BIG advantage is that these ships no longer need to undergo the rigors of the ocean. Optimal hull coatings for ships that are permanently moored will differ from ships in active service. Shortcuts can be taken with props that don’t turn, rudders that don’t move, and sea suction valves that are never open. Tanks and pipes should be purged well before arrival.

    Wikipedia has a List of Closed Navy Facilities. There are museums and dry docks in a few of these facilities. But there is no dry dock museum that accommodates museum ships.

    What would a facility look like? It would include a large group of local volunteer that could help with restoration activities. There would be a few professional vendors who can perform services on a case by case basis. It would include a barracks facility so additional volunteer groups (connected to the museum ship) could visit the facility and perform restoration activities. There would be a small staff of professional workers and a dock manager to run the operation. Space in the dry dock would be assigned on a seasonal basis. Visiting ships would be required to submit a work plan, and escrow funds to insure that a minimal level of repairs can be made, and the museum ship can return to it’s permanent berth (towed, or under it’s own power).

    If the dry dock was associated with a shipyard museum, arrangements could be showcase the dry dock and the restoration process; as well as the visiting museum ship. Every new arrival and departure would be a newsworthy event. I also think the place would make great reality TV.

    Brooklyn Naval Yard and Hunters Point have all the necessary elements. And, there is a substantial population of museum ships clustered around NYC that could use such a facility. A few years ago a dry dock in Brooklyn was filled in and paved over for an IKEA parking lot.
    In addition to the ones he mentioned there is the dry dock at the Washington Navy Yard (already a museum) and one(Charlestown Dry Dock #1) in Boston that is under the National Park Service, still functioning and in use!
    So, please throw in your comments and ideas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyDoc View Post
    So, please throw in your comments and ideas!
    Something, possibly stupid, just popped into my head: A floating drydock that can be moved around as needed, most especially on the East Coast.

    From Wiki:

    "...the 850-foot AFDB-3, an Advance Base Sectional Dock, saw action in Guam, was mothballed near Norfolk, Virginia, and was eventually towed to Portland, Maine, to become part of Bath Iron Works' repair facilities."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Something, possibly stupid, just popped into my head: A floating drydock that can be moved around as needed, most especially on the East Coast.

    From Wiki:

    "...the 850-foot AFDB-3, an Advance Base Sectional Dock, saw action in Guam, was mothballed near Norfolk, Virginia, and was eventually towed to Portland, Maine, to become part of Bath Iron Works' repair facilities."
    This is an interesting idea, but you may be out of luck if you're looking at an old wartime AFDB.

    AFDB-1
    Section B-D became IX-534, 525 and 521 respectively. IX 521 and 534 subsequently became part of Dock#5 at Portland, Or
    Section E is now part of Dock#5 at Portland, Or
    The other sections have been sunk or scrapped.

    AFDB-2
    Sections E and I are now part of Dock#5 at Portland, Or
    The other sections have been sunk or scrapped.

    AFDB-3
    Bath Iron Works retired this one in 2000 and sold it to a shipyard in Rikeka, Croatia in 2001.

    AFDB-4
    This one appears to be sunk at Seedler Harbor and the wreck is still there. The documentation is a bit fuzzy on this one.

    AFDB-5
    This one is intact and in service at Signal International in Port Arthur, Tx. This one was previously located at Todd Shipyard in Galveston and was used for the Texas in 1988.

    AFDB-6
    This one was scrapped in 1975

    AFDB-7
    Sections A-E and G are located in Brownsville, Tx and are in use but in a 3x2 configuration, not a 6x1 configuration. It's used like that to launch Rigs.
    Section F became YFP-14 and was later sunk as a target.

    AFDB-8 and 9 were post-war docks and are in commercial service at Guam and Galveston respectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisV71 View Post
    This is an interesting idea, but you may be out of luck if you're looking at an old wartime AFDB.
    That's exactly what I was wondering last night when I posted that. Good info, thanks!

    So the question is, without trying to reinvent the wheel how much would a basic no-frills AFDB cost to manufacture these days...

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    Not to rain on he parade, but aren't a lot of the ships stuck in the mud?

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    TH, If that was something stupid that popped into your head, then we are both headed for the asylum!
    Whether it was a commercial floating dry dock or a military one, there was another problem with it. As usual, $$$$$
    One of the reasons to concentrate on a dry dock in/at a museum is the potential for the work on a ship and the ship itself to be a draw for visitors and therefore income. The latest discussion included how many people are excited to see and visit Iowa as she is being worked on in Richmond. They are only allowed to walk her decks and yet they are coming!
    I adapted an old platitude, "you don't know what you've got if you don't have one!! The chance to have a different historical ship every year at such a facility would be a significant event.
    The really big ones present a dilemma. Moving Yorktown out of the mud into a floating dry dock? Which is why she will be repaired in place with a coffer dam being built.
    There are some other benefits to having a "museum dry dock" that is demonstrated by the fact that Constitution will be put into Drydock #1 in Boston for work in 2014. So, there are the opportunities to rent it out just like a museum "building" is rented out for functions.
    Another very important consideration that is mentioned in the post is the cost of staying in the dry dock. The USS Cassin Young was moved in to Drydock 1, work was begun and then more need was discovered. She has been in there for a while with no work being done. But, since NPS has the dock, there is no daily occupancy fee! That has allowed time to find the funds and the plans to finish her up. Had she been in a private dry dock, she may have met a different fate by now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Not to rain on he parade, but aren't a lot of the ships stuck in the mud?
    At least with them, one does not have to worry about them sinking!

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    Manufacturing multiplier.............

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    That's exactly what I was wondering last night when I posted that. Good info, thanks!

    So the question is, without trying to reinvent the wheel how much would a basic no-frills AFDB cost to manufacture these days...
    A quick down and dirty formula is.........

    Weight of material x today's market rate for product x 3 = Ballpark Estimate

    So.... if the naval sources available can compute the lbs. / material to displacement ratio you will have the first part of the formula..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by blidgepump View Post
    A quick down and dirty formula is.........

    Weight of material x today's market rate for product x 3 = Ballpark Estimate

    So.... if the naval sources available can compute the lbs. / material to displacement ratio you will have the first part of the formula..........

    USS Olympia max displacement 13,388,000lbs.

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    The other thing is you would have to spread out any museum drydocks around the country so the ships don't have to travel far. One of the reasons they are dry-berthing the Texas is that in 1988 she almost sank just going to the drydock in Galveston. She was taking on so much water, she cleared the sill of the dock by 6 inches. Now that shipyard is gone and the closest shipyard that can handle her is in Pascagoula. She would never survive that tow. I'm sure there are other museum ships that are in a similar situation. (Olympia is a good example)

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    There are a number of situations that because of years of non-action, no money and neglect very little can be done about.
    However, there is no time like the present to plan for the future. There are a lot of more recent museum ships that will need continued maintenance to keep them viable. Most of them are not CV's and BB's! If Olympia had been properly cared for and maintained, she would not be in peril.
    A museum dry dock (one on each coast) is a way to put in place continued maintenance that would prevent future "Olympia's" and the future costs rising above feasibility! Which it seems they have in the private industry. Especially since the industry has shrunk so much over the years!

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    Poking around Mare Island with Google Earth, I noticed SEVERAL good-sized drydocks, but they're subterranean (below ground); would those be useful for maintenance on a museum ship ASSUMING you could get it there without sinking? A couple of them look large enough for a BB.

    "Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990

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    Currently the four dry docks at Mare are under lease to Allied Defense Recycling. Of course, once they have finished their work on the ships in Suisun Bay and they go out of business, then who knows!
    Considering the fact that a large part of the former Navy ship yard is historical, that would be the ideal place for a West coast location! The only thing is there are not so many smaller museum(non CV or BB) ships on that coast. Plus, one has to consider the political environment of the area! That kind of a museum would probably not garner a lot of praise or support!
    (from the HNSA map)
    Things do look a little heavier on the right coast!
    Name:  hnsamap.jpg
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    Last edited by NavyDoc; 21 Mar 12, at 23:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    Poking around Mare Island with Google Earth, I noticed SEVERAL good-sized drydocks, but they're subterranean (below ground); would those be useful for maintenance on a museum ship ASSUMING you could get it there without sinking? A couple of them look large enough for a BB.
    Just as an example of the size of the drydocks at Mare, check out this picture from the 20's of drydock #2 with "6" destroyers in it!Name:  h70684.jpg
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    blidgepump likes this.

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    Okay.... now the factor!

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    USS Olympia max displacement 13,388,000lbs.
    And what is U.S. Steel quoting rolled steel at today?

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