Modern CIWS vs WWII Kamakazi

**JRT** · 20 Feb 12,, 03:42

Originally Posted by 2DREZQ

I know it doesn't put up a wall, That's just what the manufacturer used as a sound byte to sell the idea to the senate appropriations committee (even in alternate realities, some things are a constant)

Just to put some numbers on it...

Phalanx CIWS' selectable rate of fire is 3000 rounds per minute (50 per second) to 4500 per min (75 per sec).

At 3600 feet per sec muzzle velocity, that spaces rounds 48 feet apart near the muzzle at the higher rate, 64 feet apart at the lower rate. A 100 round burst at the lower rate would take two seconds, and the shot string would be over one mile long between first and last projectile, covering a very small patch of sky.

**Dreadnought** · 20 Feb 12,, 06:06

Originally Posted by JRT

Just to put some numbers on it...

Phalanx CIWS' selectable rate of fire is 3000 rounds per minute (50 per second) to 4500 per min (75 per sec).

At 3600 feet per sec muzzle velocity, that spaces rounds 48 feet apart near the muzzle at the higher rate, 64 feet apart at the lower rate. A 100 round burst at the lower rate would take two seconds, and the shot string would be over one mile long between first and last projectile, covering a very small patch of sky.

And that two barrel 40mm would nowhere near put that many bullets into the sky in that time frame. They are mechanical. The Phalanx are pneumatic or air powered and auto correcting with its own onboard system. It does not rely on the ship radar assist as those systems did in the past. They can be ready within seconds from its own drum instead of having to feed from a mag.

The difference between tracking and opening fire between the two will be far more then several seconds. The Phalanx spins up in seconds (very few) to full rotation. In that picture you have a two barrel 40mm. One third the firepower capacity of the Phalanx and nowhere near as fast however larger in size. As far as tracking and opening fire the older retired system is to say for lack of a better word retarted compared to those two radars and the CIWS can travers 85 degrees plus in seconds. Those mechanical mounts were a mix of electric and hydraulic and more then likely water cooled to maintain barrel integrity. If they are within range of the two it is not even a contest compared to the modern Phalanx system. I have been first hand privy to some of their capabilities from the men that operate those systems today. That information need not be posted here. Obviously you give those systems very little credit as compared to the older mechanical systems whose systems are dependent upon radar systems that were not their own and located some distance from the mounts where as the CIWS systems are fully dependent upon their own onboard system with the back up of other ships radar systems to feed them targeting data.

If compared on the very same plane, they are not comparable. In the space of time it would take the mechanical 40 mm to engage, track, lead and then fire 100 rounds the Phalanx could more then likely let go several 100 round bursts easily and much different then the 40mm instead of leading they are auto correcting mid stream because of those radars. IMO, there is no comparrison if both are operating within the very same parameters. The 40mm has bigger shells, the CIWS hands down will fire slew rates faster with more accuracy and with a stiffer penetrater then the 40mm would ever posess. That is only because they are very scarcely used with exception to the Spectre's and Spooky gun ships that employ them even today.

On one hand the 40mm is a bigger projectile (twice the Phalanx) on the other the Phalanx is faster (firing and reacting) and can put far more penetrating steel in the air faster and more accurately the the antiquated 40mm system.

Couple that with the FLIR system attached to the updated systems and no plane with its heat source (especially a WWII kamikazi) will escape the Phalanx once in range. And yes the new systems can easily track slow moving objects as well. These guns have also shot down mortars in Iraq, they are a proven system.

I did not mean this to become a comaprrison of these two systems. Orginally it was CIWS vs. Kamikazi,

**Chogy** · 20 Feb 12,, 14:41

Given the modern capabilities presented here, when will we have (or maybe we do already) a land-based anti-personnel sentry system that never sleeps?

- Uses M-240 or perhaps a GE minigun in 7.62mm
- Thermal sights for night, edge contrast or movement seeker for day, or a combination
- Operator arms system, goes for hot chow or sleep
- System engages anything it sees between 20 and 250 meters
- IFF capable? Friendlies wear RFID or thermal digital pattern

Do we have this? Think automatic gun from "Aliens."

**Officer of Engineers** · 20 Feb 12,, 16:05

Originally Posted by Chogy

Given the modern capabilities presented here, when will we have (or maybe we do already) a land-based anti-personnel sentry system that never sleeps?

- Uses M-240 or perhaps a GE minigun in 7.62mm
- Thermal sights for night, edge contrast or movement seeker for day, or a combination
- Operator arms system, goes for hot chow or sleep
- System engages anything it sees between 20 and 250 meters
- IFF capable? Friendlies wear RFID or thermal digital pattern

It's called a minefield and extremely IFF capable. Friendlies should know where the mines are. Foes should not.

Originally Posted by Chogy

Do we have this? Think automatic gun from "Aliens."

When I first saw the movie, I thought, what is so freaking wrong with landmines?

**Blademaster** · 20 Feb 12,, 16:10

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

When I first saw the movie, I thought, what is so freaking wrong with landmines?

And miss out on the golden opportunity to show off your latest geek whiz gun porn technology??!!! Geez!

**Stitch** · 20 Feb 12,, 17:25

Originally Posted by Chogy

Given the modern capabilities presented here, when will we have (or maybe we do already) a land-based anti-personnel sentry system that never sleeps?

- Uses M-240 or perhaps a GE minigun in 7.62mm
- Thermal sights for night, edge contrast or movement seeker for day, or a combination
- Operator arms system, goes for hot chow or sleep
- System engages anything it sees between 20 and 250 meters
- IFF capable? Friendlies wear RFID or thermal digital pattern

Do we have this? Think automatic gun from "Aliens."

This is definitely overkill, but there is a land-based version of the Phalanx called C-RAM; I suppose you could scale it down, and use an M-134 (7.62mm) or an M-214 (5.56mm) instead.

**Dreadnought** · 20 Feb 12,, 17:41

This gun when it becomes standard in the USN will end such comparrisons.
The Bofors 57 mm Mk 3.

**blidgepump** · 20 Feb 12,, 18:28

Okay, I now know what I want to do with the rest of my workforce career!

People actually get paid for this kind of research. too?

**JRT** · 20 Feb 12,, 19:29

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Obviously you give those systems very little credit as compared to the older mechanical systems whose systems are dependent upon radar systems that were not their own and located some distance from the mounts where as the CIWS systems are fully dependent upon their own onboard system with the back up of other ships radar systems to feed them targeting data.

???

I made no comment about gun systems in use in WW2, and made no comparison of any of those to a modern CIWS.

**Dreadnought** · 20 Feb 12,, 21:01

Originally Posted by JRT

Just to put some numbers on it...

Phalanx CIWS' selectable rate of fire is 3000 rounds per minute (50 per second) to 4500 per min (75 per sec).

At 3600 feet per sec muzzle velocity, that spaces rounds 48 feet apart near the muzzle at the higher rate, 64 feet apart at the lower rate. A 100 round burst at the lower rate would take two seconds, and the shot string would be over one mile long between first and last projectile, covering a very small patch of sky.

*Phalanx can fire short bursts from 60 to 100 to continuous fire. It all depends on what employment mode the gun system is in and the operators preference when cued for response to target aquisition and track.

I misread your prior comment. My bad.

**Gun Grape** · 21 Feb 12,, 00:27

Originally Posted by Chogy

Given the modern capabilities presented here, when will we have (or maybe we do already) a land-based anti-personnel sentry system that never sleeps?

- Uses M-240 or perhaps a GE minigun in 7.62mm
- Thermal sights for night, edge contrast or movement seeker for day, or a combination
- Operator arms system, goes for hot chow or sleep
- System engages anything it sees between 20 and 250 meters
- IFF capable? Friendlies wear RFID or thermal digital pattern

Do we have this? Think automatic gun from "Aliens."

We are getting there.

the Army sent 3 to Iraq. Then canceled the project

First Armed Robots on Patrol in Iraq (Updated) | Danger Room | Wired.com

And one the Corps canceled

Gladiator Tactical Unmanned Ground Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**TopHatter** · 21 Feb 12,, 03:59

Just gonna through this out there because my OCD is pinging on active and it's killing my head: The word is spelled "Kamikaze"

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

When I first saw the movie, I thought, what is so freaking wrong with landmines?

Against a human foe that has fear and is aware of the nature of mines (hidden), the minefield is perfect. The first mine that goes off makes everybody stop dead in their tracks, sit on their ass, and call up the engineers to clear out the minefield (assuming they're not busy clearing out the regimental scotch supply).

The xenomorphs in Aliens were essentially insect-like drones and had no such fear and thus the best option was killing them wholesale. Thus the sentry guns were perfect for their intended role...right up until they ran out of ammo of course.

And then there's the little thing about James Cameron being a left-winger that looooooves guns but like any good leftist hates the military and therefore doesn't understand jack shit about it.

**Chogy** · 21 Feb 12,, 13:37

The only reason I brought up a fanboy fantasy is because modern sensors, servomotor systems, and digital electronics have progressed to a point where it isn't a fantasy anymore. Technologically, it is entirely feasible. And unlike mines, it is eminently portable and can provide near instant security for remote outposts.

**astralis** · 21 Feb 12,, 13:43

i wonder how it'd identify between hostiles and neutrals.

**Dreadnought** · 21 Feb 12,, 14:10

Originally Posted by astralis

i wonder how it'd identify between hostiles and neutrals.

More then likely some interoperability with the IFF sysyem for shipborn application, either manual operator input or some how linked to the system automatically.