Flight IIA Burke aft CIWS retrofit?

**HKDan** · 01 Mar 11,, 12:55

Hi guys,

I was messing around on Navsource today and something caught my eye. A number of Flight IIA Burkes seem to have been retrofitted with an aft CIWS so that now they have one instead of the no CIWS situation that they were launched with. I had been of the understanding that starting with DDG-85 the Flight IIAs were not built with CIWS. Do any of you know if it is the intention to retrofit all Flight IIAs with one aft CIWS?

**Dreadnought** · 01 Mar 11,, 15:50

For those that are not carrying the CIWS system they are carrying the ESSM system giving it longer range and better capabiliy against anti-ship missles.

I grabbed this from another site after checking a few facts. This should clear up the difference between the Burkes and Tico's weapon system differences. Although this article is dated it should reflect the results as present before current modernization programs take effect.

1) The Tico class cruiser has 126 VLS cells. The Flt IIA Arleigh Burke has 96 VLS cells (32 fore and 64 aft).

2) The Tico also has 2 5inch guns, 2 Phalanx CIWS and a 8 cell harpoon missile launcher. The Arleigh Burke Flt IIA has only 1 5 inch gun, no CIWS fit, and no Harpoon missile launchers though there are space to fit them if necessary.

3) Flt IIAs are supposed to be armed with the ESSM while the Tico's will get them when they go through the Cruiser modernisation upgrade.

4) Significantly, the Tico has 4 SPG-61 radar illuminators for the SM-2 missiles while the Arleigh Burkes have 3.

Also of note the CIWS systems carried by them are not the Block 1's they are the newer Blocks capable of 5,000 rpm instead of the Block 1's 3,000 rpm and carry updated Doplers in them.

Each ship may be in different outfits as they cycled through the yards for refit. So you may see some combinations that are not listed.

**Anixtu** · 01 Mar 11,, 19:18

Analyst: DDGs without CIWS vulnerable - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

Plans call for each Flight IIA destroyer to have one CIWS gun mounted amidships by fiscal 2013, and some have already gotten theirs.

**Dreadnought** · 01 Mar 11,, 22:36

Originally Posted by Anixtu

Analyst: DDGs without CIWS vulnerable - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

You have to be careful of what analyst state. There is a difference between a DDG (Destroyer, Destroyer Guided missle) and a CG (Cruiser Guided missle) which this thread is discussing and many of the destroyers have already had the modification and are carrying two CIWS instead of one amidships The entire classes are in a state of transformation to newer and better tech on a constant basis.

CIWS Blocks:

This will be the fomer, present and future mods to CIWS:

Block 1 incorporated a new search antenna to detect high altitude missiles, improved search sensitivity, increased the ammunition available for firing by 50 percent, a pneumatic gun drive which increased the firing rate to 4500 rounds per minute, and started using tungsten ammunition as well as depleted uranium. Block I improvements provide increased elevation coverage, larger magazine space for increased round capacity, a variable and higher gun fire rate, and improved radar and processing capabilities.

Block 1A incorporated a new High Order Language Computer (HOLC) to provide more processing power over the obsolete general purpose digital computer, improved fire control algorithms to counter maneuvering targets, search multiple weapons coordination to better manage engagements, and an end-to-end testing function to better determine system functionality.

Block 1B Phalanx Surface Mode (PSUM) incorporates a side mounted Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) which enables CIWS to engage low slow or hovering aircraft and surface craft. Additionally, the FLIR assists the radar in engaging some ASCM�s bringing a greater chance of ship survivability. Block 1B uses a thermal imager Automatic Acquisition Video Tracker (AAVT) and stablilization system that provide surface mode and electro-optic (EO) angle track. These Block 1B enhancements will allow day/night detection capability and enable the CIWS to engage small surface targets, slow-moving air targets, and helicopters.

Baseline 2C improvements provide an integrated multi-weapon operations capability. During integrated operations, the command system controls CIWS sensors, target reports, mode employment, and doctrine. The sensors are utilized to provide 360 degree search and track coverage, while providing track data to, and receiving designations from, the Command system. This CIWS installation includes a conversion kit for each weapon group to facilitate ease and safety of maintenance; the "maintenance enclosure" kit installs the below-deck equipment for a gun mount in a prefabricated enclosure with the mount located above it.

I'm of the opinion that there are not many if any ships without CIWS mounts by the time that article was written in 2008. The USN's newest ones carry both CIWS & ESSM'S.

DDG-109 Jason Dunham on her commisioning day with CIWS on the aft deck although they do not list CIWS for her armament but ESSM 's. Perhaps shes already carrying them forward due to the absense of the Bridge mounted CIWS.

Bridge mount open (No CIWS) so not modified as of yet.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/050110917.jpg

Aft CIWS mount:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/050110945.jpg

DDG-110 USS William P Lawrence No Bridge mount CIWS but aft mount CIWS.

Google Image Result for http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg110/Sea%20Trials/IMG_2175.JPG

DDG-111 Spruance fore CIWS mount but listed to carry ESSM's as well. Shes not even in commision yet and already carrying CIWS foreward and more then likely aft. Perhaps their conversion to ESSM comes a bit later down the line or maybe she already has it.

Google Image Result for http://pic.wenwen.soso.com/p/20090401/20090401131717-484980216.jpg

**JA Boomer** · 01 Mar 11,, 22:48

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

You have to be careful of what analyst state. There is a difference between a DDG (Destroyer, Destroyer Guided missle) and a CG (Cruiser Guided missle) which this thread is discussing and many of the destroyers have already had the modification and are carrying two CIWS instead of one amidships The entire classes are in a state of transformation to newer and better tech on a constant basis.

I'm of the opinion that there are not many if any ships without CIWS mounts by the time that article was written in 2008. The USN's newest ones carry both CIWS & ESSM'S.

Mmm...unless there was some editing by posters after the fact, it appears this thread is discussing the inclusion of CIWS in the Burke DDG's only, nothing related to the Tico CG's at all.

Also, as just a casual observer, it is clearly noticeable that Burke DDG's started with 2 CIWS (fore and aft), and then switched to none in anticipation of ESSM being used in the role. It now appears the ships who were originally outfitted with none are recieving an aft CIWS in refit, and the newest Burke's coming out of the yards are back to being outfitted with 2 CIWS (fore and aft) as the Spruance illustrates.

Is this a fair summary?

**Anixtu** · 01 Mar 11,, 23:22

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

DDG-111 Spruance fore CIWS mount but listed to carry ESSM's as well. Shes not even in commision yet and already carrying CIWS foreward and more then likely aft. Perhaps their conversion to ESSM comes a bit later down the line or maybe she already has it.

Google Image Result for http://pic.wenwen.soso.com/p/20090401/20090401131717-484980216.jpg

That picture is of DD-111, JDS Onami.

**JA Boomer** · 01 Mar 11,, 23:29

Originally Posted by Anixtu

That picture is of DD-111, JDS Onami.

Nice catch. So are the Burke's coming off the docks right now fitted out with 0, 1, or 2 CIWS?

Not to hi-jack the thread, but on a related topic. Is the RAM system a more capable CIWS, or is the Phalanx more suitable for surface ship deployment due to its additional anti-surface capability.

**Bill** · 01 Mar 11,, 23:58

About five years ago we were told the Phalanx was obsolete and the RAM would be replacing them on everything.

As per usual, the Navy seems to have reversed itself.

Also, the early Burkes only had one Bridge CIWS mount, not 2. So if they're getting 2 now, it is an upgrade as no previous versions had two, and some had none.

**JA Boomer** · 02 Mar 11,, 00:11

Originally Posted by Bill

Also, the early Burkes only had one Bridge CIWS mount, not 2. So if they're getting 2 now, it is an upgrade as no previous versions had two, and some had none.

I believe that's absolutely incorrect. The Arleigh Burke DDG-51 herself has two Phalanx CIWS in pictures at least as early as 1991. Burke's were outfitted with two CIWS (fore and aft) until the decision that ESSM could effectively perform the role, and they switched to NO CIWS.

I believe DDG-51 through DDG-84 have 2 Phalanx CIWS, while later ships have none or one CIWS mounted aft (a retrofit except perhaps for the most recently delivered ships).

It appears to me the US Navy started includeing the aft CIWS station again starting with DDG-106 Stockdale.

**HKDan** · 02 Mar 11,, 00:30

Originally Posted by JA Boomer

it is clearly noticeable that Burke DDG's started with 2 CIWS (fore and aft), and then switched to none in anticipation of ESSM being used in the role. It now appears the ships who were originally outfitted with none are recieving an aft CIWS in refit, and the newest Burke's coming out of the yards are back to being outfitted with 2 CIWS (fore and aft) as the Spruance illustrates.

JA Boomer,

This is my understanding as well, although I am not yet sure how many (possibly all?) of the IIAs that formerly did not have any CIWS have now been retrofitted.

**HKDan** · 02 Mar 11,, 00:42

Originally Posted by JA Boomer

I believe that's absolutely incorrect. The Arleigh Burke DDG-51 herself has two Phalanx CIWS in pictures at least as early as 1991. Burke's were outfitted with two CIWS (fore and aft) until the decision that ESSM could effectively perform the role, and they switched to NO CIWS.

I believe DDG-51 through DDG-84 have 2 Phalanx CIWS, while later ships have none or one CIWS mounted aft (a retrofit except perhaps for the most recently delivered ships).

It appears to me the US Navy started includeing the aft CIWS station again starting with DDG-106 Stockdale.

You are correct that DDG-51 through DDG-84 were commissioned with 2 CIWS, then some of the Flight IIA Burkes starting with USS McCampbell had none.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/05018526.jpg
Here is a photo of the same ship, DDG-85, from 2008. It clearly shows that an aft CIWS mount has been retrofitted. Interestingly, it also appears that the domes of the retrofitted CIWS are painted gray rather than the traditional white.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/05018543.jpg

I have been able to find similar images for a number of other Flight IIA Burkes, but have not been able to confirm if this retrofit has been applied to all ships DDG -85 through DDG-110(most recently commissioned).

As for DDG-111, USS Spruance, I believe that the photo posted by Dreadnought is in fact a JMSDF ship, and I can't find any other photo to confirm whether it will have both fore and aft CIWS installed.

**Dreadnought** · 02 Mar 11,, 00:49

Originally Posted by Anixtu

That picture is of DD-111, JDS Onami.

Curses didnt look close enough, There are pics available of her but she has not yet been placed in Commission. Shes already been Christened though and her CO was named.

Thanks for catching that.

The ship before USS Spruance (DDG110 William P. Lawrence.) had the platform for the bridge superstructure mount CIWS during sea trials as did DDG109 USS Jason Dunham as shown here. They both mount the aft mount new block CIWS. All are slated to carry the ESSM's.

http://www.ussnewyork.com/wordpress/...ham-ddg-109-2/

IMO, It wouldn't make sense to carry an aft mount CIWS for protecting the stern vls tubes and helo ops and not protect both the Bridge and forward mounted tubes from attack so for all we know they already are carrying the ESSM's forward in VLS. It would explain the missing forward mount CIWS.

**HKDan** · 02 Mar 11,, 11:21

Dreadnought,

I think you are right. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that they were carrying ESSM fore and CIWS aft. The ESSM and CIWS combination would just add another layer to the defenses of already very impressive ships. Plus, I really dig the newer versions of CIWS, damn those are cool. I for one am pretty happy to find out the this retrofit has taken place. I just hope that all of the Flight IIAs that didn't originally have CIWS get one. Also, SM-6 is supposed to hit the fleet this year. The good news for this class just keeps on coming.

**dundonrl** · 08 Apr 11,, 07:03

The Flight IIa burkes don't have either CIWS installed, as it was though that ESSM was "good enough" for self defense of the ship, which is true when you have an incoming Sunburn or Sizzler (they defeat the capabilities of CIWS) but for small boat attacks etc, the Block IB CIWS with the thermal camera and low light day camera are incredible.

Also, the ships are built to a specific design, and during the PSA (Post Shakedown Availability) receive the upgrades that were not in the original drawings (the Navy saves money this way, instead of having to redo the original planning for each ship, just do the modernizations during PSA, I learned this when I was at Bath Iron Works, as a plankowner on my last ship, the USS Momsen DDG 92)

Now the latest Flight IIa's are getting a platform fwd of the bridge that's ready for CIWS, so I can see them in the future receiving that mount...

hmmm, just looking closely at the Dunham, she does have the aft CIWS mounted from the shipyard, so sometime during the building process, the drawings were updated to incorporate that into the initial building of the ship..

here's an image of the USS Jason Dunham DDG 109 with the forward CIWS platform ready from the building yard (she's doing either Alpha or Bravo/Charlie trials in this photo.

and my current ship the USS Halsey DDG 97, with just a flat platform, that still needs the base for the CIWS.

**USSWisconsin** · 08 Apr 11,, 07:34

It looks like the wing structures on the CIWS platform might restrict extreme depression of the gun, are they for ammo resupply?

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