Thread: USS United States

Well, there are a whole bunch of problems to trying to make that a troop ship.

First of all, recognize that a troop ship is likely to be USNS and not USS. Even if that were true, that it should be USS, one would probably find a lot of people, myself included, who believe that a ship named "United States" should be something more than a troop ship.

There's always the problem of how one bongs aboard the Captain when "United States" is the bong for the President.

Next, the engines are wrong. It's a gas turbine, nuclear, or diesel Navy now, not one of boilers. One can probably find a few boiler ships still in the Navy, but such propulsion does present some interesting problems. First of all, there is the question of finding the people with that kind of knowledge for that kind of boiler. The specs didn't list what kind. Secondly, there is a point of how up on their game they are.

I don't know if the "United States" has automatic boiler controls; if it doesn't, then that's a level of knowledge, expertise that is extremely hard to find these days.

Then there is the question of fuel. I'll assume that the boilers can burn JP-5.....but what if they can't? What if they depend on some kind of bunker fuel? Then there is a massive problem, similar to when C-1's were pulled from carriers because the carriers stopped carrying fuel for piston engine aircraft. We have a proposed ship to travel with the fleet that can't refuel at sea ...... if that is the case.

The superstructure is wrong. It's made out of aluminum. The Belknap taught us the folly of that design (navsource).

The manning is wrong. Even if we assume that as a troop ship, it's crew size would be similar to the West Point (companion US Steamship Lines America) at 512 ....... that's still three times the crew of an AOE, five times the crew of an AO, twice the crew of an AFS, and so forth. Manning is a problem we have these days.

The specs given says that it could take a torpedo and still keep going. I suspect they were talking about a Mk-37 ...... not a Mk-48 which is what is around these days.

Finally, auxiliaries are armed with defensive weapons only....if they are USS. But USNS ships tend not to be armed at all or minimally armed ....... and the general move these days is to have such service ships as USNS.

It would be a grand move to make the United States into a troop ship, a grand move that would be so out place with the times.
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("Should merchant ships be armed with the same defensive weapons as warships?"--voiceover
"No. And the reason we say that is that modern warfare, with all its complexities, requires intense training and practice. We do not want inexperienced people, in the heat of the moment, shooting down our own Sea Darts and Harriers."--Brit officer, (w,stte), Living Dangerously "Operation: Falklands")

imho no ship should ever be named after its country. After all, EVERY ship can be destroyed or sink in an accident. Simply does not feel right.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

Thanks for the input friend, that's a very fine opinion you have there.

For me personally, Troop Ships remain as essential to Our Army's power projection as field artillery, tanks, tracks, battleships, ballistic missiles, division sized parachute drops and other military implements, tactics & techniques that haven't been used in half a century, at least not on any large scale.

And yet as I speak I must acknowledge that there are very few people left alive who would perceive these benefits. To be fair to you, nothing like this has happened in your lifetime.

To me leadership is about planning for all possible contingencies & being prepared.

& so to paraphrase the ineffable "W"...I understand anachronisms; I are one.

I am 50 years old. We have had troop ships in my lifetime. The first lift into Viet Nam was on troop ships. Different Army, different time.

We don't need them. We don't go to war that way anymore. If we need a forced entry capability we use a USMC MEF. That is what they are trained for and equipped for and are backed up by the Gator Navy to do. The Marines mission would be to secure both a port and an airfield. Then the Army goes in on by ship for cargo and airlift for troops. Its quicker for both.

And using the Falklands analogy?

We'd send in 3 CVBGs, 3 and 3 Amphibious BGs backed up by long range USAF support.

Army wouldn't have a role to play.

The SS United States was the brainchild of one of the world's foremost marine architects, William Francis Gibbs. His dream was to build a passenger ship that was faster, safer and more technologically advanced than anything else afloat. It was truly a construction project that challenged conventional thinking. In 1952, his dream became a reality when the SS United States crossed the North Atlantic in 3 days, 10 hours and 42 minutes averaging 35.59 knots (65.48 km/hr or 40.96 mph). The design characteristics encompassing the United States read straight out of a James Bond novel, many remaining classified by the Navy well into the late 70's:
Her 241,000 horsepower engines allowed her to reach a top speed of 43 knots (79.12 km/hr or 49.48 mph)* at 990'6" in length, she is the largest passenger vessel ever built in the United States.
Materials in construction included over 2,000 tons of aluminum; she has a power-to-weight ratio that has never been equaled
She could steam 10,000 miles without stopping for fuel or supplies.
The ship was totally fireproof, being constructed completely of non-flammable materials (publicists were so fond of pointing out that the only wood on board were in her pianos and the chopping blocks).

The SS United States' $79 million construction cost was heavily underwritten by the federal government. After the wartime success of Britain's Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, as troop transports, the Navy wanted a superliner of their own that could be easily converted to troopship duty. Such was the case when the British government called on the liner Queen Elizabeth 2 to transport British troops to the Falkland Islands in 1982. The United States was constructed so that in just one day, she could be converted into a troop transport capable of carrying over 15,000 men. She could outrun anything afloat and steam non-stop anywhere in the world in less than 10 days. Although she was briefly on stand-by during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, she was never called to troop-ship duty.

Throughout her brief 17-year career, the United States held a near perfect schedule and never experienced an engineering failure. By comparison, the Queen Elizabeth 2 experienced recurring engine troubles that dated as far back as her builder's sea trials in 1969. It was so plagued with turbine troubles that after being adrift at sea without power on more than two occasions, her troublesome steam turbines were finally replaced with diesel units in 1986.

Toward the end of the sixties, the jumbo jet invasion finally took its toll on the famous trans-Atlantic superliners. On frequent sailings, the ship's 1000-plus crew often outnumbered paying passengers. In November 1969, faced with on-going union troubles and declining profits, the United States was sent to the Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock Company in Newport News, Virginia for her annual overhaul. As fate would have it, her boilers were never fired again. As the years passed, she remained docked in Norfolk, Virginia with little hope of revival.

The Pentagon, which was largely responsible for her construction, was, ironically, largely responsible for her demise. Because of the ship's highly secret design specifications, one of the stipulations that was incurred by the government was that the ship could never be sold to foreign interests. In the late 1970's Norwegian Caribbean Cruise Lines was looking for a large vessel that it could convert to cruise service. After being turned down by the Maritime Administration to purchase the SS United States, the company purchased the idled superliner France from the French government, rechristened her Norway, and returned her to service as the world's longest cruise ship.

In 1973 the Maritime Administration installed an extensive dehumidification system throughout the United States, leaving it virtually airtight. The system proved remarkably well when an unfaded copy of the New York Times from November 1969 was found in a lounge, ten years later. It was evident at this point that the government had no future plans for the United States. Once the proud flagship of a nation, the Maritime Administration now saw the SS United States as a liability on their balance sheet. In 1978, the Maritime Administration accepted a bid of $5 million from Seattle-based United States Cruises Inc. who planned to return the ship to service as the world's first condominium-style cruise ship. The ship's new owner, Richard H. Hadley, planned to finance the $150 million refit by selling cabins on a time-share basis. Brochures were printed, press releases issued and even contracts with shipyards signed, but nothing ever came to pass. Unable to pay the mounting dockage fees, in February 1992, United States Cruises Inc. was forced into bankruptcy. U.S Mar-shoals seized the ship and filed a court motion to sell the ship at auction.

The ship's fate was sealed. After a failed attempt at returning her to service, the ss United States, it seemed, would wind up at the ship breakers somewhere in the far east. A stay of execution was granted when Fred Mayer of Marmara Marine Inc., purchased the ship at auction for $2.6 million. Mayer, chairman of Commodore Cruise Lines, emigrated to the United States in the mid-60's aboard the ss United States. He and his partners, one of which was a wealthy shipyard owner in Istanbul, Turkey, negotiated a plan with Cunard who would operate her as a running mate to the Queen Elizabeth 2. The ship would sail between New York and Southampton in the summer months while the winter months would be spent cruising the tropics. In June 1992, the ship departed U.S. waters in tow, for Istanbul, Turkey, where once financing was secured workers would restore the ship to her former glory.

Originally designed as a fireproof ship, asbestos was used extensively in the ship's interior construction. An asbestos compound called Marinite was used in favor of plywood. The ship was loaded with it and if she were to sail in the 90's, the compound would have to be removed. Workmen began the arduous process of stripping the ship's interior right down to her metal bulkheads. As was the case ten years earlier, attempts to secure government assistance in the project proved unsuccessful. Furthermore, faced with corporate restructuring, Cunard was no longer interested in operating another ship, especially one the size of the United States. It was thought that she would never see U.S. waters again, but in July 1996 the SS United States returned to her homeland, but this time to Philadelphia, where the dormant Navy yard would reopen with the task of restoring the superliner to it's long lost former glory. As before, financing for the enormous project failed to materialize. The ship remains idle, awaiting the final chapter of her story.

* It is now known that the SS United States achieved speeds exceeding 44
knots, or 50mph (footnote by the SS United States Foundation).

Its certainly possible that we could use troopships in the future. I wouldn't discount the possibility. But that wouldn't justify keeping a 60 year old vessel around.

It was released today in the Philadelphia Inquirer that the ship now has a new sponser none other then.....Walter Cronkite legendary news media man.

Walter Cronkite has accepted the honorary chair for the USS United States conservatory. NCL (Norweigan Cruise Lines) also released a statement assuring that she will not be sold to scrappers nor will she be sold to any non-U.S. entity. Apparently Cronkite will be the voice for her preservation and restoration drive. A ray of hope after a decade of darkness.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

It was released today in the Philadelphia Inquirer that the ship now has a new sponser none other then.....Walter Cronkite legendary news media man.

Walter Cronkite has accepted the honorary chair for the USS United States conservatory. NCL (Norweigan Cruise Lines) also released a statement assuring that she will not be sold to scrappers nor will she be sold to any non-U.S. entity. Apparently Cronkite will be the voice for her preservation and restoration drive. A ray of hope after a decade of darkness.

That's good to hear. Several years ago I was invited to join a group to save the ship, but after seeing photos of her interior I knew there were going to be very BIG problems.

One of the photos showed the insulation had been stripped off and the bulkheads were still primed with Yellow Chromate. That was a very, very common primer paint in those days (as well as Red Lead) but even to wire brush it off is illegal today unless the ship is wrapped up in plastic and the workers wear HAZMAT suits.

Well, it could be done cheaper in the open air if you took it to another country that doesn't have an EPA or OSHA that who's goal is to outlaw anything that works (such as Chlordane for roaches and termites all because some dunderheads didn't read the label and used it in their vegetable garden).

Also, if it were to be reactivated as a live ship, her boilers can be back fitted to use Navy Distillate (Diesel Fuel Marine or DFM) as we did on the Iowa class Battleships and some Cruisers (Chicago is one that comes to mind). The tanks have to be steamed out and sealed with a polymer, pumps have to be changed out and a few other mechanical items. At least you can cut out the steam piping in the bottoms of the fuel tanks (as we did on the BB's) as they would not be needed to keep No. 2 Bunker viscous enough to flow to the burners.

Expensive, yes. But if she were coal fired the cost to change over would be near a Bank CEO's bailout cut.

I vote to scrap it. There are many more worthier vessles to restore than that one. Enterprise is going to be retired soon and we are going to need every penny to spit shine it.

Pssh, you kidding? She'll sit at Bremerton for decades, waiting for her engineroom to cool down.

Originally Posted by maximusslade

Pssh, you kidding? She'll sit at Bremerton for decades, waiting for her engineroom to cool down.

Apparently some of the crew nicknames for USS Enterprise....Mobile Chernobyl....Quarter Mile Island...