View Poll Results: Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine of world??

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  • Type 209 (Germany)

    38 47.50%
  • Oyashio (Japan)

    7 8.75%
  • Collins (Australia)

    17 21.25%
  • Kilo (USSR)

    15 18.75%
  • Walrus (Netherland)

    3 3.75%
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Thread: Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine in world??

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxor View Post
    You've never going driving with night vision goggles? Its kinda fun to do it on rural roads with the lights off and coming up behind people then flipping on your lights, have heard of people playing chicken as well but never done that myself.

    Did it once with some home made 1st Gen goggles (before we had import restrictions bought in, oddly enough, at one stage "kits" were exempt). I was young and dumb. never again.

  2. #47
    New Member oguzhanTR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomluter View Post
    Germany 214 I think.

    but I think you should put China's "Yuan" sub to your list.
    sure it is looks like kilos?

  3. #48
    New Member oguzhanTR's Avatar
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    some sourches claims "Yuan" class subs equipped with air-independent propulsion system.is it?

  4. #49
    Contributor Tomluter's Avatar
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    Yuan, 093a/b type, fuel cells AIP, only 4 subs this type. The first one was finished in 2004. the 2nd,the 3rd and the 4th were all finished in 2008.

    it was developed form PLAN's 093 type sub ,they have the same inner shell. Yuan type absorbed the design experiences of the silence submarine form Russia, but it has more advanced manufacture technology than Russian original.

    093a/b(Yuan) has been ceased now, For next "goal" sub type (A type that will be manufactured,and be widely equipped).

    fuel cells AIP is not the newest tec to China, all types sub that made after 2005 have that,any type.

  5. #50
    New Member oguzhanTR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomluter View Post
    Yuan, 093a/b type, fuel cells AIP, only 4 subs this type. The first one was finished in 2004. the 2nd,the 3rd and the 4th were all finished in 2008.

    it was developed form PLAN's 093 type sub ,they have the same inner shell. Yuan type absorbed the design experiences of the silence submarine form Russia, but it has more advanced manufacture technology than Russian original.

    093a/b(Yuan) has been ceased now, For next "goal" sub type (A type that will be manufactured,and be widely equipped).

    fuel cells AIP is not the newest tec to China, all types sub that made after 2005 have that,any type.

    thank you.

    i tried to put that machine into poll but i cant edit my first message...is there a problem on forum?

  6. #51
    Contributor Tomluter's Avatar
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    The topic is "NON-AIP diesel submarine", it's not necessary to put it in your poll.


    those pictures show 8 submarines that serviced in one of sub-fleets of PLAN. For keeping military secret, the pics was erasured some background. There are 3 Yuan (093a/b),4 kilo and 1 Song (093 type).
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Last edited by Tomluter; 29 Jan 09, at 13:51.

  7. #52
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    i heard the kilo is one of the quietest hunter killer subs in the world at present....

  8. #53
    New Member oguzhanTR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classical1939 View Post
    i heard the kilo is one of the quietest hunter killer subs in the world at present....
    not present. in 80s they were called as "black hole" but currently just a cheap hull with limited technology.

  9. #54
    Military Professional dundonrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Hunter View Post
    Collins-class. Any sub that can sneak up on a US destroyer and played "Down Under" by Men at Work down the sonar at them is a very good submarine.
    if your not listening for a submarine, and are just in a regular transit it's easy to sneak up on a surface tin can.. if it's looking for you, that's another matter..

    During an exercise off of Southern California, my last ship, the USS Momsen was able to find and keep the HMS Gotland (Swedish AIP submarine) from attacking the surface ships.. was it hard, yes, but not impossible with modern active sonar..



    also, the modern US nuclear submarines are INCREDIBLY quiet.. I'd say as quiet or more so than a modern diesel.. (the technology that went into the pumpjet propulsor and other stuff that makes noise is incredible)
    Last edited by dundonrl; 03 Feb 09, at 00:26.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundonrl View Post
    if your not listening for a submarine, and are just in a regular transit it's easy to sneak up on a surface tin can.. if it's looking for you, that's another matter..

    During an exercise off of Southern California, my last ship, the USS Momsen was able to find and keep the HMS Gotland (Swedish AIP submarine) from attacking the surface ships.. was it hard, yes, but not impossible with modern active sonar..



    also, the modern US nuclear submarines are INCREDIBLY quiet.. I'd say as quiet or more so than a modern diesel.. (the technology that went into the pumpjet propulsor and other stuff that makes noise is incredible)
    Yes, I read a quite some time ago that the US had been leasing a Swesish AIP sub with crew for 6 months, and never manage to find it. So they extended the lease for another 6 months.. If that is your definition of "hard" then impossible must be throughout the whole 30 or so years of its duration in service...


















    So, exactly how many months/years did it take you to find that sub?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Mac View Post
    So, exactly how many months/years did it take you to find that sub?
    I think u overlook the active sonar.. part

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel View Post
    I think u overlook the active sonar.. part
    I'm not overlooking anything, I'm just furthering something I read about that Dundonrl spoke about. The article never mentioned anything about an active sonar, or any sonar, afaik remember. What are you insinuating?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Mac View Post
    Yes, I read a quite some time ago that the US had been leasing a Swesish AIP sub with crew for 6 months, and never manage to find it. So they extended the lease for another 6 months.. If that is your definition of "hard" then impossible must be throughout the whole 30 or so years of its duration in service...

    So, exactly how many months/years did it take you to find that sub?
    That article is a slightly gilded version of the truth if that was its claim.

    I can think of any number of current conventional subs that are acoustically quieter than it - and quite frankly, it was leased for a number of other reasons. - and it was found and killed a number of times (as have nukes, as have other conventionals). the contact and training parameters are restricted for a number of reasons - it was not "free range".

    IMO the USN would have been better served leasing the Danish squadron (available if they'd asked the right people at the right time) as it would have tested fleet contact and pack issues. The Swedish lease was for a limited requirements test and was related to other issues way beyond "smell sub, hunt sub, kill sub"

    If true (and I would think its journalistic enthusiasm) its a tragically oversimplification of what, why and how it was leased.

    are they a good sub? of course. was the result such a simple outcome? no

    in fact, to even remotely pass comment on the results without knowing the training vectors is absolutely foolish. It is a variation of the Cope India commentary that first came out

  14. #59
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    Or they could have gotten half a dozen U206A from Germany for pack tactics training just a few years ago (by now those're all released to the scrappers afaik).

    As for "best non-aip sub"? Depends on the threat it's facing of course, and the environment. Facing a ASW group with full sensors in a littoral scenario, i'd - in comparison - put my money on a system that is available to its navy in sufficient numbers and that carries a long-range cable-guided torpedo system with swarm attack capability and soft launch. That would be the Turkish U209 Atalays armed with DM2A4.

    Has Mk48 Mod 7 been fully integrated and deployed with the Collins yet btw?

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Has Mk48 Mod 7 been fully integrated and deployed with the Collins yet btw?
    successful SINKEX conducted at RIMPAC 2008
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 13 Feb 09, at 06:41.

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