View Poll Results: Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine of world??

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  • Type 209 (Germany)

    38 47.50%
  • Oyashio (Japan)

    7 8.75%
  • Collins (Australia)

    17 21.25%
  • Kilo (USSR)

    15 18.75%
  • Walrus (Netherland)

    3 3.75%
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Thread: Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine in world??

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by oguzhanTR View Post
    i thought but it is really old fashioned.
    Old? A mere 10 years older than the first 209's, Oyashio, and the Collins and the same age as the Walrus, Kilo class. Though they've been removed they had Harpoon and mine-laying capabilities. Once they've been through a re-fit they'll compare favourably to everything on the list except maybe the Collins

  2. #17
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    A recent innovation by Australian Submarine Corporation in maintenance allows the diesel engine to undergo maintenance inside the Collins class submarine which is an improvement over having to cut the hull open to do so.
    There is no such thing as free lunch

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuku View Post
    Which is the most profitable one on the list, as in the one sold the most and made the most profits )
    Being profitable doesn't mean its the best.

  4. #19
    New Member oguzhanTR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prairie Canuck View Post
    Old? A mere 10 years older than the first 209's, Oyashio, and the Collins and the same age as the Walrus, Kilo class. Though they've been removed they had Harpoon and mine-laying capabilities. Once they've been through a re-fit they'll compare favourably to everything on the list except maybe the Collins
    you'r right but i'm talking about last variants just like 209/1400 or 1500mod they all belongs to 90s.

  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baaper View Post
    Good evening,

    I think you're making a mistake on the Walrus-class. Those are great machines that are capable to outclass last upgrade LA-class nuclear subs. Their predecessors (Zwaardvis-class) were one of the best in the world to. Taiwan bought them, wich pissed of the Chinese government. Because they still dont have the boats capable of fighting these (over 35 year old) vessels.
    Are you serious about the Walrus "outclassing" a 688? You might be talking about a first-gen 688, but not a 688i.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baaper View Post
    Diving depths are not right btw. The real depths are usually classified.

    Greetings
    And you are absolutely right about diving depths; the "official" diving depth for the 688i is 200m, but other (unclassified) sources place it closer to 300m.

    "Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990

  6. #21
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    Hey,

    Yup i am serious, but nothing is official ofcourse. It are all rumors because both vessels are still in service.

    Not much official information is available, but in 2005 there was a press release. A training with the Dutch Hr. Ms. Dolfijn and the USS San Juan. Training: "Shark Hunt" I searched fot the text in English but could only find it in Dutch.

    The text says that the USS San Juan could only spot the Dolphin when it surfaced for oxygen. The Americans were impressed by the capacities of the Dutch boat.

    Ofcourse the full information isn't given here, because it's a secret. That is what makes discussions like this difficult, because nobody can prove anything. But rumors say that the Walrus class does an excellent job against these boats.

    Maybe some new information will be available in some time, because the Hr. Ms. Walrus just had a training with the USS Dallas.


    But for how long will the Walrus class be competative? I think it will be over pretty soon, the Dutch government loves destroying industries like these. The dockyard (RDM) which build the boats is already gone since a few years ago and the Navy doesn't have the knowledge to do it all by them self. It's a waste, especially if you see how much the German 212A (an excellent boat) looks like a small 'Moray-class' (The boat that should have replaced the Walrus)

    I made a mistake on the Zwaardvis-class, those boats were disassembled two years ago.

    Yup all boats go a lot deeper then they say.


    But one problem is a fact, and that is the Dutch government. They never showed their capacities to the world, and to potential buyers. Not many people know of the Dutch navy and what they can do. (A prove is this thread, the boat gets underrated by its anonymity, and by the reputation of the country that owns it.)

    *Hahaha, frustration frustration frustration. Who knows maybe the government wakes up one day... who knows...* Hahaha
    Last edited by Baaper; 13 Nov 08, at 15:31.

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor kuku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usplanefan67 View Post
    Being profitable doesn't mean its the best.
    It does to the company selling the submarine, :P

    the best, we may never know, (however lets go by the very easy comparison provided on the first post, its the U-209)
    cheers

  8. #23
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    IMO, It don't matter because no diesel powered sub can hide from midrange even when on batteries.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  9. #24
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    Isn't the Lada class the best Russian diesel sub.
    Also, isn't there is a bunch of different variations of the Kilo class (Type 877EKM the 90's version)(although probably the same for some of the rest).

    Would favour the German sub in what has been named.

  10. #25
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    Here is a great piece of text which greatly shows the power of Diesel subs. It's not old fashioned, it is for certain things (not everything ofcourse) still the best there is.

    While Canadian submarines have routinely taken on American carriers, other small navies have enjoyed similar victories. The Royal Netherlands Navy, with its small force of extremely quiet diesel submarines, has made the US Navy eat the proverbial slice of humble pie on more than one occasion. In 1989, naval analyst Norman Polmar wrote in Naval Forces that during NATO's exercise Northern Star, "the Dutch submarine 'Zwaardvis' was the only orange (enemy) submarine to successfully stalk and sink a blue (allied) aircraft carrier. The carrier in question might have been the USS America, as it was a participant in this exercise. Ten years later there were reports that the Dutch submarine Walrus had been even more successful in the exercise JTFEX/TMDI99. During this exercise the Walrus penetrates the US screen and sinks many ships, including the U.S. aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The submarine launches two attacks and manages to sneak away. To celebrate the sinking the crew designed a special T-shirt. Fittingly, the T-shirt depicted the USS Theodore Roosevelt impaled on the tusks of a walrus. It was also reported that the Walrus sank many of the Roosevelt's escorts, including the nuclear submarine USS Boise, a cruiser, several destroyers and frigates, plus the command ship USS Mount Whitney. The Walrus herself survived the exercise with no damage. Talented and wily enemies, of course, usually do not play by the rules, and they do not stick to a script.

    Actually, it should come as no great eye-opener that Dutch submarines would do well against the US Navy. The Dutch submarine service has an enviable reputation, and has been praised by people such as the Late Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood, Jr., US Navy, who was Commander, Submarines Pacific during World War II. Lockwood said in 1945 that Dutch submarines in the Pacific were “thoroughly effective. They handled their boats with great skill and do not need to take off their hats to anyone. The admiral also mentioned his high regard for their ruggedness and fighting skills. Nowadays, many navies, including the US Navy, send their submarine officers to the Netherlands to undergo the legendary Netherlands Submarine Command Course. In November 2002, the Royal Australian Navy official newspaper described the Dutch course for prospective diesel submarine commanders as arguably the best submarine training in the world. US Navy students who have taken the course have also found it extremely challenging (in 2002, naval officers from the US, Australia, Canada, Israel and the Netherlands took the course, but unfortunately, the American officer failed due to a safety violation. The US Navy officer was the only one to fail that year, but in fairness, he was a nuclear submariner, naturally, and ergo was much less familiar with the workings of a diesel submarine and its battery operations.) Reassuringly, Lieutenant Commander Todd Cloutier, US Navy, did graduate from the Dutch course in 2003, and he too elucidated the programs legendary reputation and described it as perhaps some of some of the toughest training a submariner can get. Although this course is for experienced officers who wish to command a diesel submarine, he was also very impressed by the overall training received by Dutch junior officers. A Dutch Junior Officer (JO) with three years at sea is quite proficient with the periscope. During my familiarization ride on Bruinvis (Walrus class), I saw a non-qualified JO take the conn and conduct a task-group penetration against a multinational task force. It wasn't perfect, but quite impressive for a JO with less than two years on board.
    Last edited by Baaper; 18 Nov 08, at 09:21.

  11. #26
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baaper View Post
    Here is a great text which shows the power of Diesel subs. Size really is a handicap. People say way to easy that diesel subs are old fashioned and are nothing to be afraid of. Well.... they're wrong.
    The counter argument is that the exercise was designed in a very confined zone on the open ocean. The subs knew their targets couldn't leave the zone. The subs also knew their targets were in this zone. Saved a lot of time trying to find the carriers. Widen the exercise zone to half of western Pacific and it's a whole new ball game.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  12. #27
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    Yes that is true.
    But the training you are talking about has a complete different goal then this one.
    The point is to check how quiet the boat is while attacking and how good the escort is at defending itself. And it seems that escorts like these (which are even supported by nucleair subs) are very vulnerable.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodinga View Post
    The Collins class according to an ASC financial report also have facilities for the insertion of special forces squads
    They were always designed to carry specials - not fitting the AIP made it easier. There are some very nice pics at FBE of SAS doodling about on a Collins on a training exercise - damn shame they're not in the PD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodinga View Post
    also the subs have been upgraded with the AN/BYG-1 Combat Control System with mark 48 ADCAP Torpedos which are a match for US AIP subs
    USN doesn't have AIP - nukes don't need it.

    The AN/BYG-1 is a derivative of the same combat system used by 688I's, Seawolf, Virginias and the SSGN's.

    The CBASS (Mk48 ADCAP)was a collaborative effort between RAN/DSTO and USN/NAVSEA - so we both use it - hence also the common combat system issues, and the common combat room.

    btw, the publicly listed numbers at the start of the post are way way off to the point of being meaningless.
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 18 Nov 08, at 12:59.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baaper View Post
    But one problem is a fact, and that is the Dutch government. They never showed their capacities to the world, and to potential buyers. Not many people know of the Dutch navy and what they can do. (A prove is this thread, the boat gets underrated by its anonymity, and by the reputation of the country that owns it.)

    *Hahaha, frustration frustration frustration. Who knows maybe the government wakes up one day... who knows...* Hahaha

    Actually, I can't think of any submarine service I've dealt with where they "talk up" what they do. Submariners don't talk - and it's irrelevant to them what anyone else thinks.

    In fact, IMOE the one thing that is common about submariners and specwarries is that they STFU about capability.
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 18 Nov 08, at 21:10. Reason: sp

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    Actually, I can't think of any submarine service I've dealt with where they "talk up" what they do. Submariners don't talk - and it's irrelevant to hem what anyone else thinks.

    In fact, IMOE the one thing that is common about submariners and specwarries is that they STFU about capability.

    Very true indeed!
    And the government should see through the anonimity and keep on spending money on it. Instead of taking all the money away and giving it to the (as the Dutch submariners call them: "Floating Pubs") fleet on the surface.
    It is a lot easier for the government to spend money on the 'normal' fleet because that's what is in the spotlights.

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