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Thread: Indias Nuclear Navy

  1. #16
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    Maximus, i KNOW i read somewhere that China's military budget was 65 billion, and India's budget was 11 billion. Maybe it was an old website but how much could it have gone up right? How does China propperly maintain its army because they O.D. on its size? Wouldnt their forces just be huge walking targets? It would just be like the battle of Bunker hill where the British were just picked of by the Americans.

  2. #17
    Ray
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    South Asia Analysis Group

    Paper no. 202



    23. 02. 2001


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    Rethinking Indian Nuclearisation

    by Rajesh Kumar Mishra

    The resounding new debate on nuclear proliferation round the globe reflects further apprehensions among the existing nuclear weapon states. This new surge of nuclear debate can do no good but would considerably harm various new post cold war international initiatives on non proliferation. Suspicions are bound to cloud over the reorientation of upcoming foreign policies both at regional and international levels. Consequently, India, already burdened with lots of regional and international compulsions and being an active international actor, cannot remain unaffected by this new trend.

    India’s quest for nuclear energy had started in 1974. The major shift in the philosophy behind Pokhran II from Pokhran I is clear manifestation of India’s neighbourhood threat perceptions and the associated global complexities. Overall, it is the reflection of an Indian understanding of the world security dynamics. Though, officially, India is still unequivocally committed to a world free from weapons of mass destruction.

    Since long India has been facing a threatening nexus between China and Pakistan. These regional adversaries not separately but jointly act against India. Pakistan has been acting and responding to the Chinese meticulous inter-national plans quite swiftly. In fact, Pakistan has been behaving in a manner that definitely exceeds its strategic defence requirements. This uniqueness of hostile alliance may cause an arms race breaking out between India and China.

    Unlike Pakistan, development in Indian nuclear science and technology is completely indigenous in nature and scope. And the weaponisation programme witnessed its flashpoint when five nuclear tests were conducted in May 1998. Subsequently, a broad framework for the development, deployment, delivery, command and control was proposed by the National Security Advisory Board on 17th August 1999. This draft proposal is commonly debated as India’s Nuclear Doctrine. The manifest capability and willingness of a nuclear weapon power to be responsible enough are indicated in the declaration of its “no-first-use (NFU)” principle.

    The preamble of this document opens with India’s belief in complete disarmament and that the weapons of mass destruction constitute the gravest threat to humanity. The doctrine explains that the fundamental purpose of the Indian nuclear weapons is to deter the use and threat of use of nuclear weapons by any state or entity against India and its forces. And any threat of use of nuclear weapons against India would invoke measures to counter the threat. As a defensive document, it pleads for “credible minimum nuclear deterrence”.

    The credible minimum nuclear deterrence theory is based on triad of nuclear attack – bombers/aircraft; mobile, ready to be deployed or deployed missiles; and sea-based carriers and assets. Presently, the Indian reliability on Mirage 2000 and Sukohi-30 is much in debate. The different variants of Prithvi (short-range ballistic missiles) are reportedly credible for their purpose with expected range and payload capabilities. Most significant, the series of Agni (intermediate range ballistic missiles) are being tested for achieving higher accuracy in reach and magnitude of destruction to the enemy state or entity. And, reportedly, the programmes are to pursue capability enhancement in the shift from peacetime deployment to fully employable forces in shortest possible time. Though, currently not so transparent, India needs though not an elaborate one, but at least an effective command and control system.

    Basically, India needs a strong defence build-up to face any bolt from the blue due to its neighbouring hostile countries- China and Pakistan. In fact, this has compelled India to follow the “credible” defensive plans and strategies that could have been otherwise avoided.

    China has long been pursuing the policy of “encirclement of India”. In past, also, it has already shown belligerence against India. Of late, the establishment of radar base in Coco island (belonging to Myanmar) at place that is only a gunshot away from the Indian Andaman and Nicobar islands has alarmed the Indian defence. And the tracing of Chinese trawler fitted with modern electronic surveillance equipment off the Indian shores has created speculations in the Indian navy.

    In addition, sources reveal that China is believed to have deployed some 125 long-range (1700 km or more) nuclear armed ballistic missiles. More so, it is reported that China is having some 150 bomber-deliverable nuclear weapons and 120 tactical nuclear weapons deliverable by short-range missiles or artillery. Again, it has been widely mentioned of Chinese move of deployment of nuclear forces in Tibet and other bordering provinces. The advancement towards Chinese DG-25 missiles is being specially planned as counter move to Indian development of Agni II and III missiles. It has also been reported that a further upgrade of Hong Niano-3 (HN-3) is now being developed with range increased to 2500Km for ship, submarine and aircraft launch.

    China’s promotion of many of Pakistan's missile and technology programmes and acquisitions. SIPRI report ( SIPRI Yearbook 1997, Oxford University Press, New York) is set to further increase India’s concerns. Through logical coherence of events and facts, India might interpret China's continued technology transfers to Pakistan, as a product of Beijing's intent to provoke conflict between India and Pakistan. Alternatively, it might suggest that Beijing seeks to increase the capabilities of Pakistan in the hope that Pakistan might deliver a greater threat to India. According to its estimates, there have been numerous missile transactions from China to Pakistan. One series of transfers sent more than 2000 portable SAM missiles to Pakistan. Another group of transactions sent six LY-60N ship-to-air missile systems and almost 100 accompanying ship-to-air missiles to Pakistan. China has continuously been criticised for the transfer of numerous M-9 and M-11 missiles, each capable of carrying a nuclear warhead, to Pakistan. It has also been widely publicised that Pakistan acquired blueprints and equipment to build a factory for M-11 missiles in addition to the M-11 missile components from the Chinese Ministry of Aerospace Industry.

    In addition, RAND issue paper ( Jones, Gregory. S , From Testing to Deploying Nuclear Forces: The Hard Choices Facing India and Pakistan, RAND Issue Paper 192, March 2000) mentions that there are many reports of China having provided Pakistan with substantial aid to both its nuclear and ballistic missile programmes. An alternative to a direct Chinese nuclear confrontation with India is for China to continue or even increase its aid to Pakistan. China’s goal would be to make it harder for India to use its superior resources to gain advantage over Pakistan. The issue paper also does not rule out the expected direct nuclear threat to India. It elaborates that China has a more complex nuclear policy that does not rule out nuclear attacks on its neighbours. It is not clear what China’s real nuclear policy is, but it might under some circumstances include the first use of nuclear weapons. Though this opinion reflects under-estimation of the Indian defence capabilities, one cannot deny the superiority of Chinese defence and economic strength and the fact that historically, China has been an aggressive and expansionist country cannot be overlooked.

    Even the present global nuclear regime is discriminatory and non-transparent. This further adds to the Indian threat perceptions. Today, the attitude and justification of the erstwhile super powers as well as China reflect the same cold war underpinnings of mutual distrust and international permutations of national self-interests. And the complexities in the global power structure are bound to affect India’s foreign policy.

    Any attempt to promote the continuity of cold war thoughts and foreign policy contours by the major international actors may further complicate the Indian foreign policy-making mechanism. The issues of national interest concerning both the defence and development should be effectively communicated at all international forums. And, in accordance with the needs, policy perceptions should also be changed. Openness in both words and deeds would aptly suit the future opportunities. While consolidating national defence, India should simultaneously seek to actualise all possible peaceful means to achieve international peace and prosperity.
    http://www.saag.org/papers3/paper202.htm

  3. #18
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    12/2/2002: LEASE OF NUCLEAR SUBMARINE MOVES FORWARD
    On 2 December 2002, the Indian Express reported that India would soon conclude a deal including the purchase of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier and a three-year lease of a Shchuka B-class [NATO name 'Akula II'] nuclear submarine. The paper cited "highly-placed sources in the military-industrial complex in Moscow" as saying that details of the lease have been deliberately kept secret by the Indian and Russian governments for fear of pressure from Western governments. Indian Express reported that the final price negotiations took place 10 days previously during Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov's visit to New Delhi. However, the deal is not expected to be signed during President Putin's current visit to India, because it would draw too much attention.[1] Asked about the Indian Express report, the Chief of Staff of the Indian Navy Admiral Madhvendra Singh refused to confirm or deny the report.[2] President Putin, asked a similar question, answered elliptically, referring to the limitations Russia's international obligations put on nuclear cooperation with India, and adding that all cooperation would meet those obligations.[3] Despite its proliferation implications, the lease of a nuclear submarine, notably, would violate no international agreements.
    Sources:
    [1] Jyoti Malhotra, "Icing on Gorshkov cake for India: a nuclear submarine," Indian Express online edition, 2 December 2002, http://www.indianexpress.com.
    [2] Rajesh Mahapatra, "Report: India to Lease Nuclear Sub," Moscow Times online edition, 3 December 2002, http://www.moscowtimes.ru.
    [3] Amit Baruah, The Hindu online edition, 1 December 2002; in "Russia's Putin interviewed on US policy on Iraq; Pakistan, ties with India," FBIS Document SAP20021201000027. {Entered 12/3/2002 CC}
    http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russi...nd/nukedev.htm


    8 February INDIA’S PURCHASE OF A RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT CARRIER AND PROPOSED LEASE OF TWO AKULA BARS TYPE 971 SSNs WAS NOT FINALIZED AT A RECENT MEETING. India’s decision to lease the Russian SSNs is due to a lack of progress in its indigenous SSN project, known as the Advanced Technology Vessel. Subject to the Indian government’s approval, the Russian submarines will enter service in the Indian Navy in 2004, the first year of a five-year lease. According to terms being negotiated with Rosoboronexport. India will help finance the construction of the two new Akula class boats; and the proceeds will allow Russia to complete work on its fourth generation SSN, the Type 855, which has been laid down at the Sevmash shipyard. No agreement has yet been reached, however, on the transfer of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, the proposed lease of two Akulas, or the purchase of four Tu-22M Backfire bombers. At a joint news conference held after the meeting of the India-Russia Intergovernmental Commission, the Indian Defense Minister said "The technical discussions [for the bombers and aircraft carrier] have been completed. The price negotiation is what needs to be done." Regarding the submarines, the Deputy Prime Minister of Russia said "I am not ready to discuss the question concerning the nuclear-powered submarines, because I am not holding negotiations on this point." But Indian sources said that "Russia had linked the lease of the two submarines to the sale of the Gorshkov." In all, the deal for the lease of submarines and the sale of the Gorshkov is estimated to be worth $3–$4 bn. Negotiations for the sale of the aircraft carrier, under way since 1995, involve the Gorshkov’s being transferred for the cost of a refit, estimated at $750 mn. India is also negotiating for the purchase of about 40 MiG-29Ks for use on the carrier for $1.3 bn. Indian sources said that the delay in finalizing the deal was due to a disagreement over the cost of the carrier refit {Ruhul Bedi in JDW 06.02.02, 20.02.02}.
    http://www.idds.org/acr2003/707e3CAR02.html
    Last edited by Ray; 17 Jan 05, at 19:06.

  4. #19

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    "SOME FACTS:
    India's defence budget for 2004 was $16.74 billion which was only 2.55% of its GDP.
    where as Pakistan's defence budget in 2004 was $3.32 billion, which was 5.5% of its GDP.
    China's 2004 defence budget was for US$25.6 billion, which was 6% of its GDP."



    Can or Does Pakistan compete successfully now? If yes, in what way? I mean how does Pakistan negate the tremendous difference in total $$ spent on defence by India?
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    when they make no laws but what they themselves and their posterity must be subject to; when they can give no money, but what they must pay their share of; when they can do no mischief, but what must fall upon their own heads in common with their countrymen; their principals may expect then good laws, little mischief, and much frugality

  5. #20
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    In defense Pakistan is WAAYYY behind than India. There is a major in-balance between the two but India still doesn't have the ability to occupy Pakistan, too many Muhajideens, sponsored by the ISI.

  6. #21

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    SO Pakistan is no problem, the real problem is ISIstan. If only ISIstan could be made to spend itself into oblivion, like the Russian, as if ISIstan was Russia and as if India were the US. It all makes sense now.
    _____________________

    when they make no laws but what they themselves and their posterity must be subject to; when they can give no money, but what they must pay their share of; when they can do no mischief, but what must fall upon their own heads in common with their countrymen; their principals may expect then good laws, little mischief, and much frugality

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Lastly, currently, India can hurt China but China can destroy India.
    China can destroy India only with nukes. India has enough of nukes to retaliate in the same manner.
    Beyond that, conventionaly it will be a stalemate, unless some revolution in Tibet assists India.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    China can destroy India only with nukes. India has enough of nukes to retaliate in the same manner.
    Beyond that, conventionaly it will be a stalemate, unless some revolution in Tibet assists India.
    Captain,

    India does not have a counter-force capability vis-a-vi China wheras China more than have a second strike capability against India. Chinese infrastructures would be able to survive an Indian 1st strike because of India's lack of range and punch. The same cannot be said the other way around.
    Chimo

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Captain,

    India does not have a counter-force capability vis-a-vi China wheras China more than have a second strike capability against India. Chinese infrastructures would be able to survive an Indian 1st strike because of India's lack of range and punch. The same cannot be said the other way around.

    But India is changing that situation with Agni IIIs. Last I heard, India is building 20 Agnis per year or something like that. It was mentioned by Defense Minister Ferndandes when BJP was in power in response to a member of Parliament in a conjornment of Parliament.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Captain,

    India does not have a counter-force capability vis-a-vi China wheras China more than have a second strike capability against India. Chinese infrastructures would be able to survive an Indian 1st strike because of India's lack of range and punch. The same cannot be said the other way around.
    Sir,
    That is true, that deficiency is being addressed. India has to threaten the east coast of China to gain any deterance, at present that capability is limited.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    HAHAHAHAHA. Now that's funny. How old are you adolf?

    You think Russia is going to sell nuclear anti-shipping missiles to India????

    ROFLMAO!!!! That's the funniest thing I've heard since joining WAB, including Lull's wierd theories.

    Thanks for the laugh.
    There’s no such thing as “nuclear anti-shipping missiles” Are you Chief Blast by any chance, the guy who serves Dart Vader?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster
    But India is changing that situation with Agni IIIs. Last I heard, India is building 20 Agnis per year or something like that. It was mentioned by Defense Minister Ferndandes when BJP was in power in response to a member of Parliament in a conjornment of Parliament.
    Money, Hitesh, money. Everything comes back down to money. There are so many demands on the defence dollar that you cannot possibly try to overcome 30 years of a headstart on just $11-13bil a year.

    I don't doubt India is trying to rectify the situation but parity ain't something you can achieve overnight. The 1st thing to aim for is a, even rudimentary, 2nd strike capability of some sort, maybe one or two bombs but that's more important than adding missiles at the moment.
    Chimo

  13. #28
    Ray
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    What does the CIA have to say about the number of nukes China, India and Pakistan have?

  14. #29
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    Colonel,
    Thats why India is hell bent in acquiring/building a SSN. I heard that they are planning to either use a nuke tipped longer range cruise missile instead of SLBM's.

    But once Agni 3's are inducted in good numbers, atleast India will reach the strategic stalemate, we dont need to smoke the whole of China, just 5-10 per population centers in eastern sea board. It may not entirely wipe them out, but it'll be painful enough that would stop Chinese in any nuclear adventure.

    Reaching parity with respect to China is pretty strenous to our defence budget, just credible numbers are good enuff.
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Aryan
    There’s no such thing as “nuclear anti-shipping missiles” Are you Chief Blast by any chance, the guy who serves Dart Vader?
    IIRC it was you that mentioned the KH-22N
    Nuclear version.

    Model: Kh-22P. Country: Russia. Department of Defence Designation: AS-4C. ASCC Reporting Name: Kitchen. Manufacturer's Designation: Kh-22P. Complex: K-22 (D-2). Missile: Kh-22P.

    Model: Kh-22B. Country: Russia. Department of Defence Designation: AS-4C. ASCC Reporting Name: Kitchen. Manufacturer's Designation: Kh-22B. Complex: K-22 (D-2). Missile: Kh-22B.

    Model: Kh-22N. Anti-ship missile. Country: Russia. Department of Defence Designation: AS-4B. ASCC Reporting Name: Kitchen. Manufacturer's Designation: Kh-22N. Alternate Designation: Burya. Complex: K-22 (D-2). Missile: Kh-22N.
    http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/kh22.htm

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