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Thread: A New Military Alliance in the Offing? Five-nation naval exercise begins

  1. #31
    Contributor JohnFlint1985's Avatar
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    What is probably is going on is that USA has anew modus operandi in this region. It used to be Pakistan that was the vanguard of American help in military equipment and know-how. Today it is too unstable and fighting it's own little civil war. Also it helped North Korea to create nuclear bomb. So it is not the same level of cooperation as before in 1980s. Also back then Russia was in Afghanistan which is no more. so...
    India on the other hand had before and still have a big problem on it's western and northern border (Pakistan and China) which are closely allied for almost 40 years. So USA see it as a possible ally in the possible future rivalry with China. India is big, democratic, self-sustaining country. It has no any beef with USA, generally very peaceful and have a lot of trade with the west. In my book is sounds like a best ally. The other countries in the region are getting onto the India bandwagon so to speak. Just an opinion



    the more neon green the map - the more hostile relations India have
    Last edited by JohnFlint1985; 19 Oct 07, at 19:31.
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  2. #32
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    Ha, if that was accurate then Pakistan would blind you with neon greenness.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    Ha, if that was accurate then Pakistan would blind you with neon greenness.
    Please elaborate.
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  4. #34
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    How the heck does India have hostile relations with Argentina, Peru, Columbia, Panama, Cuba, and then a bit lighter, with Canada, Mexico, etc, etc, etc??? lol. Am I missing something here? :P
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    How the heck does India have hostile relations with Argentina, Peru, Columbia, Panama, Cuba, and then a bit lighter, with Canada, Mexico, etc, etc, etc??? lol. Am I missing something here? :P
    They are not hostile -m the map has to many shades of green that is why it is inaccurate, Basically hostile relations are Pakistan, China, Bangladesh. The darker the better. the lighter the worse, but not that worse.
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  6. #36
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
    They are not hostile -m the map has to many shades of green that is why it is inaccurate, Basically hostile relations are Pakistan, China, Bangladesh. The darker the better. the lighter the worse, but not that worse.
    Not the best map, but thanks John. And as for Bangladesh and India being hostile, there have been some hostilities, especially with the rise of Islamic fundamentalists in Bangladesh, but it is nowhere to the scale of hostilities with Pakistan. However, the situation with pak is also far better now, but the political situation in Pak has just turned into a huge mess and we can only wait and hope the next regime is just as willing to talk on the lines of peace as was the Musharaf government.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  7. #37
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
    Please elaborate.
    I was being facetious. The overall Indo-Pakistani relationship is so hostile (as you often used to see on these forums) that it would blind you if represented on that map.
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  8. #38
    Contributor JohnFlint1985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Not the best map, but thanks John. And as for Bangladesh and India being hostile, there have been some hostilities, especially with the rise of Islamic fundamentalists in Bangladesh, but it is nowhere to the scale of hostilities with Pakistan. However, the situation with pak is also far better now, but the political situation in Pak has just turned into a huge mess and we can only wait and hope the next regime is just as willing to talk on the lines of peace as was the Musharaf government.
    I may be wrong - but it seems to me that Pakistan is falling apart. At least 2 large area are not under central government control (Waziristan and Kashmir), rise of Islamic Fundamentalism and also Army start failing. The last is a very dangerous sign - army was the most secular institution. So it is possible that we may see something out of the ordinary over there.
    "We Shall Never Surrender" Winston Churchill

  9. #39
    Ray
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    The problem of Pakistan is an identity crisis, in that, though Pakistan was created to give the Moslems of India a homeland for Moslem, Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, in his inaugural address to the Constituent Assembly, desired Pakistan to be a secular nation where all could practise their Faiths without discrimination. There started the dichotomy in identity! Pakistan, a Moslem haven and yet wanting to be secular! Islam and secularism, even as per the Islamic scripture, is as nearbred as chalk to cheese. Dar ul Islam and Dar ul Harb!

    While Jinnah may have desired secularism with a mere touch of Islamic supremacy, yet the psychology of the people did not, and rightly so, since they had suffered, as did Indians, huge riots that claimed millions of lives. Obviously, one could not forget their suffering and hence Islam took foundation uber alles, being the raison d’ être for Pakistan being formed! And it was not as per Islamic tenets of Far ul Islam and Dar ul Harb!

    The people of the areas that became Pakistan were basically feudal and illiterate and their livelihood was in agriculture or the Armed Forces. On the other hand, those who migrated (the Mohajirs) were educated, emancipated and were people who were in institutions of a democracy i.e. lawyers, bureaucrats, petty businessmen etc. However, the important aspect was that they were rootless since their identity with “the soil" was left in India! Those who have been refugees can alone understand the heartbreak this is!

    It was the Mohajirs who took over the governance and economy of Pakistan. Obviously, it was not appreciated by the original inhabitants of the areas that became Pakistan. The armed forces, composed of the original inhabitants, exerted to resume control of the area, and thus foundationed the psyche of martial law repeatedly afflicting Pakistan! The psyche of the Armed Forces being supreme has become so ingrained and powerful that it is ridiculously interesting that Pakistan is being currently ruled by a Mohajir i.e. Parvez Musharraf!

    The Mohajirs, being educated and clever, realised that regionalism would leave them no place in Pakistan politics, which they were controlling (Jinnah was a Mohajir and technically a heretic since he married a non Moslem i.e. a Parsi), pulled out Islam as a all embracing card and as the be all and end all of Pakistan! Obviously, none could challenge that!

    Providence came to the rescue of the Mohajirs – the Kashmir Issue wherein a Hindu ruler with Moslem population, acceded to India. It served both the Mohajir as also the Army (of original inhabitants) interests. Thus, Islam was supreme, and yet the Army was required to deliver. Practical application is more important than theory. Hence, the Army became the power behind the throne!

    Thus, Pakistan is but a tussle for supremacy between Islam and the military and India is a convenient whipping boy for all ills that besot Pakistan! Even the British came for a beating since Radcliff (the one who worked out the boundaries) failed to give India to Pakistan!

    The Pakistanis of today are most uncomfortable that India is taking its place in US' geostrategic vision!

    In so far as Pakistan falling apart , the answer is simple. They are unable to reconcile with the problem of their support for Islamic terrorism in the name of Islam and the Caliphate and their dire necessity for progress by being a matured partner in the world comity of nations!

    The terrorism that they had so far imported is coming home to roost i.e. NWFP, Lal Mazjid and the bombs that shook Benazir's motorcade!
    Last edited by Ray; 20 Oct 07, at 19:50.


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  10. #40
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    I don't see India being too close to anyone. They're kind of happy to be free of colonialism. They like having people with technology come help them out with their military and space programs, but they like to be their own nation.
    Work is the curse of the drinking class.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    "Us bellycrawlers get canned food..."

    Ah, for the love of a good C-rat can of spagetti and meatballs. You're lucky, sir. Our move to MREs, though, was accompanied by a veritable explosion of culinary skill among our troops- and store bought canned food out of our pockets whenever we could. Of course, we had the vehicles to squirrel away anything we needed.

    Being artillery, we always aspired to rise above the mean and lowly spirit of skulking pioneers and infantry. OTOH, as a fire support officer for a light infantry battalion, I ate what they ate-which wasn't so good. When you carry your food on your back, suddenly you become quite sensitive to weight. I carried a small bag of spices in my ruck during those days. Awful to think about.

    They made us dig holes and sleep on the deck. Imagine that! Rudely inconsiderate of our delicate dispositions
    I had friends from the Artillery, because they threw all the different unit types together on a Comms course, and we didn't want to hang out with the MP's and other creatures of loathing. The arty guys were fine until they walked more than kilometer...then it's where's the truck time.

    The US rations are a whole lot worse than the Canadian rations and I never liked many of the Canadian ration packs that much (the ham and pineapple breakfasts still haunt my bowels). Except the pastas and the beans and weaners the Canadian ration packs could also be a bit frightening.

    I remember one US ration where it described the contents as mechanically taking perfectly good beef and reducing it to a goo, then injecting it to take on its shape and chemically dyeing it, before painting chemical grill marks on it. One bite and I was ready to consider resorting to cannibalism as an alternative. I did like those tiny tobasco bottles though. The US crackers were pretty good, but those fruit meal supplements with your main meal were usually disgusting. Those chemical ration heater bags were pretty neat too. When you got drenched from head to toe in the bush, you could set it off, stand over it in a rain poncho to dry out, and be good to go again.
    Work is the curse of the drinking class.

  12. #42
    Contributor JohnFlint1985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    The problem of Pakistan is an identity crisis, in that, though Pakistan was created to give the Moslems of India a homeland for Moslem, Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, in his inaugural address to the Constituent Assembly, desired Pakistan to be a secular nation where all could practise their Faiths without discrimination. There started the dichotomy in identity! Pakistan, a Moslem haven and yet wanting to be secular! Islam and secularism, even as per the Islamic scripture, is as nearbred as chalk to cheese. Dar ul Islam and Dar ul Harb!

    While Jinnah may have desired secularism with a mere touch of Islamic supremacy, yet the psychology of the people did not, and rightly so, since they had suffered, as did Indians, huge riots that claimed millions of lives. Obviously, one could not forget their suffering and hence Islam took foundation uber alles, being the raison d’ être for Pakistan being formed! And it was not as per Islamic tenets of Far ul Islam and Dar ul Harb!

    The people of the areas that became Pakistan were basically feudal and illiterate and their livelihood was in agriculture or the Armed Forces. On the other hand, those who migrated (the Mohajirs) were educated, emancipated and were people who were in institutions of a democracy i.e. lawyers, bureaucrats, petty businessmen etc. However, the important aspect was that they were rootless since their identity with “the soil" was left in India! Those who have been refugees can alone understand the heartbreak this is!

    It was the Mohajirs who took over the governance and economy of Pakistan. Obviously, it was not appreciated by the original inhabitants of the areas that became Pakistan. The armed forces, composed of the original inhabitants, exerted to resume control of the area, and thus foundationed the psyche of martial law repeatedly afflicting Pakistan! The psyche of the Armed Forces being supreme has become so ingrained and powerful that it is ridiculously interesting that Pakistan is being currently ruled by a Mohajir i.e. Parvez Musharraf!

    The Mohajirs, being educated and clever, realised that regionalism would leave them no place in Pakistan politics, which they were controlling (Jinnah was a Mohajir and technically a heretic since he married a non Moslem i.e. a Parsi), pulled out Islam as a all embracing card and as the be all and end all of Pakistan! Obviously, none could challenge that!

    Providence came to the rescue of the Mohajirs – the Kashmir Issue wherein a Hindu ruler with Moslem population, acceded to India. It served both the Mohajir as also the Army (of original inhabitants) interests. Thus, Islam was supreme, and yet the Army was required to deliver. Practical application is more important than theory. Hence, the Army became the power behind the throne!

    Thus, Pakistan is but a tussle for supremacy between Islam and the military and India is a convenient whipping boy for all ills that besot Pakistan! Even the British came for a beating since Radcliff (the one who worked out the boundaries) failed to give India to Pakistan!

    The Pakistanis of today are most uncomfortable that India is taking its place in US' geostrategic vision!

    In so far as Pakistan falling apart , the answer is simple. They are unable to reconcile with the problem of their support for Islamic terrorism in the name of Islam and the Caliphate and their dire necessity for progress by being a matured partner in the world comity of nations!

    The terrorism that they had so far imported is coming home to roost i.e. NWFP, Lal Mazjid and the bombs that shook Benazir's motorcade!
    You know- I am glad to hear this from a person from India, cause on the other forum I had a big argument with the guy who is an American but of Indian decent- and he argued with me that India will never be an ally of USA. I tried to show him the facts, maps, cited common sense issues. Nothing really worked - so I was unsure how this may play out with the people in India.
    His arguments were - India was a colony of Western World and because of that will never be an ally of the west. Don't know what to say to this really. You gave me some confidence back.
    As for Pakistan. It is becoming a major liability for the West. God forbid this country will disintegrate - where the nukes will go? It is never a problem for India. Pakistan is another thing. Waziristan has about 70000 well armed local tribesmen who know every mountain pass in Panshir mountains, To fight them - is a major problem. So in our interests- that this country remains stable. Otherwise we will have another Iraq on our hands , but 1000 times worse.
    Last edited by JohnFlint1985; 21 Oct 07, at 05:15.
    "We Shall Never Surrender" Winston Churchill

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
    You know- I am glad to hear this from a person from India, cause on the other forum I had a big argument with the guy who is an American but of Indian decent- and he argued with me that India will never be an ally of USA. I tried to show him the facts, maps, cited common sense issues. Nothing really worked - so I was unsure how this may play out with the people in India.
    You've misunderstood the Brigadier. India will never be an ally of anyone. She stands alone. She wants to stand alone. She will have common interests with the rest of the world and will stand with others who stands with her but she will never submit to the leadership of another.

    And the US will never enter into an alliance in which she is not the leader.
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  14. #44
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You've misunderstood the Brigadier. India will never be an ally of anyone. She stands alone. She wants to stand alone. She will have common interests with the rest of the world and will stand with others who stands with her but she will never submit to the leadership of another.

    And the US will never enter into an alliance in which she is not the leader.
    You couldn't be more ACCURATE. This is the reality. India has aspirations that if achieved(And seems she is already in the road that leads there) will enable her to become a major power in all contexts. She has no reasons and desire to play second fiddle to any major power.She was dependent for quite sometimes, on the earstwhile USSR for majority of her defence requirements but still managed to keep an arms distance and not become an ally to it. She has a similar stance vis-a-vis the US. She considers her independent stand as the most important thing...and everything else comes after that. She has huge requirements that she alone can't fulfill and requires assistance from the western nations, however she won't stoop to get all that. This is what I think is the dominant undercurrent in her international and foreign policy....irrespective of the different governments and their manifestos.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggot
    I don't see India being too close to anyone. They're kind of happy to be free of colonialism. They like having people with technology come help them out with their military and space programs, but they like to be their own nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You've misunderstood the Brigadier. India will never be an ally of anyone. She stands alone. She wants to stand alone. She will have common interests with the rest of the world and will stand with others who stands with her but she will never submit to the leadership of another.

    And the US will never enter into an alliance in which she is not the leader.
    India in a nutshell. Its just the way we are.
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