Thread: Chinese Carriers

The purpose of the ski jump (not to mention the incredibly detailed island mock-up) is to get everybody used to the exact layout of the flight deck.

When the crews finally go to sea on the real Varyag, they'll be in totally familiar territory...right down to the giant ski jump sitting on the bow.

Train as you fight
Fight as you train

I wouldn't doubt that they've equipped the island to train the guys on the "Ouija Board" and all the rest of the non-flight deck air ops lads as well.

The Chinese aren't playing around, that's for damn sure.

Originally Posted by TopHatter

The purpose of the ski jump (not to mention the incredibly detailed island mock-up) is to get everybody used to the exact layout of the flight deck.

When the crews finally go to sea on the real Varyag, they'll be in totally familiar territory...right down to the giant ski jump sitting on the bow.

Train as you fight
Fight as you train

I wouldn't doubt that they've equipped the island to train the guys on the "Ouija Board" and all the rest of the non-flight deck air ops lads as well.

The Chinese aren't playing around, that's for damn sure.

I guess that makes sense.

Here's Feng at ID's take. Information Dissemination: Work on Varyag + full scale mock up in Wuhan
Some more good pics there, too.

Also, why put it on a building at all? Seems like it would be pretty easy to just lay it out on the ground, maybe on an airfield. Do they want to practice jumping off out of the way of crashes or something?

of all people.... Feng mis-ID-ed the Wuhan ship design institute as 711 institute, it was the 701 institute.

Wuhan ship design institute (also known as 711 institute of China Ship Design Institute).

The following article is correct.....because I help write it.

Oct. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Welding torches flare at dusk in the coastal Chinese city of Dalian as workers mill about on the flight deck of an unfinished aircraft carrier once intended for the Soviet navy.

More than 400 miles (643 kilometers) from the ocean, a full-size mock-up sits next to a lake in Wuhan. While the twin can be used to train deck crews, it will never sail. Its “hull” is a 1,000 foot-long (300 meter) building.

China’s leaders have talked for five decades about acquiring what they call “aircraft mother ships.” Spurred by dependence on safe sea lanes for exports and inbound shipments of oil, gas and iron ore, the world’s fastest-growing major economy is preparing to send a carrier to sea within a few years, military analysts say. Such a move in the Pacific, where the U.S. has dominated since World War II, would give China added power in territorial disputes with Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines.

“A Chinese aircraft carrier is probably a matter of when, not if,” says David Finkelstein, director of China studies at CNA, an Alexandria, Virginia-based consulting group with national-security expertise. “There is already a strategic rationale for the need for an aircraft carrier or some sort of vessel that can project air power within the region.”

The first will be the former Varyag being completed in Dalian, according to a July report by the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence. It predicts the warship will become operational as a training platform between 2010 and 2012, with domestically built carriers “sometime after 2015.”

Destroyers, Submarines

They would join a fleet of about 190 principal ships, including destroyers, submarines and amphibious vessels, according to a 2009 U.S. Defense Department report. That compares with about 285 U.S. ships, including 11 aircraft carriers displacing about one-third more than the 65,000-ton ex- Varyag.

China must buy jets, train aviators, build support vessels and learn the skills required to conduct air operations at sea. One such battle group costs about $10 billion, U.S. Naval War College researchers estimate.

While China’s commission of an aircraft carrier may cause consternation in Washington, it won’t change the military balance between the two nations because of the U.S. lead in numbers of carrier battle groups and platforms such as ultra- silent cruise-missile-carrying nuclear submarines, says Robert Ross, a professor at Boston College in Massachusetts who specializes in U.S.-China relations.

Military Installations

That reality may be lost amid alarm in the U.S. Congress and among allies including the Philippines, which came to the brink of conflict with China in 1995 over alleged Chinese military installations on a South China Sea reef and will look for reassurance from the U.S. that defense ties remain strong.

“The carrier is a symbol of power projection, which will simply resonate in other countries as it resonates in China,” Ross says.

China concentrated on protecting its home waters with missiles, submarines and minelayers until this decade; carriers weren’t seen as necessary or cost-effective, Ross says. It bought a World War II-era vessel from Australia in 1985 that it later scrapped, according to the Australian Navy. Two Russian carriers became tourist attractions.

China’s fleet has begun to range beyond its coast. Two destroyers and a supply ship deployed for anti-piracy patrols off Somalia in December 2008. With a $3.9 trillion economy and the world’s largest foreign-exchange reserves, at $2.3 trillion, China’s leadership is showing signs it is serious about joining the U.S., Russia, France and Brazil in possessing vessels capable of launching conventional fixed-wing airplanes.

Offensive Operations

China “won’t forever be without an aircraft carrier,” Defense Minister Liang Guanglie told his Japanese counterpart in March, Xinhua News reported. China’s 2006 Defense White Paper said the navy would extend its mandate beyond coastal defense to include “offshore defensive operations.”

The Varyag was originally intended to be the second 65,000- ton carrier of the former Soviet Union when construction began in the 1980s; it wasn’t completed after the country broke up in 1991, according to the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence July report. Its sister, the Admiral Kuznetsov, is the flagship of Russia’s navy.

Ukraine inherited the Varyag, selling it to China in 1998. It arrived in 2002 in Dalian, site of China’s largest shipyard, the report said. It was in plain view during a visit last month, in drydock about 600 meters from an Ikea furniture store.

Crew Training

During renovation, its future crew could train in Wuhan’s southern suburbs. Construction on the mock-up began last year, heralded by drummers and the provincial Communist Party leader, according to a press release from state-owned China Shipbuilding Industry Corp. in Beijing. Two cranes towered above the structure as of last week, visible to farmers across Huangjia Lake fertilizing vegetable plots.

Finkelstein and Ross say they believe China is trying to avoid surprising the world when it inaugurates its carrier program and has allowed the military to make public statements about its plans, even though two people at China Shipbuilding’s 701 Institute hung up when called about the project, and the Defense Ministry didn’t return fax and e-mail requests for comment.

“This shouldn’t be a shock when it happens,” Finkelstein says. “The real question is, what are they going to do with these things?”

--Michael Forsythe. With assistance from Tony Capaccio in Washington. Editors: Melinda Grenier, Bill Austin.

China Moves to Project Air Power With Soviet Carrier Overhaul - Bloomberg.com

Monday, November 16, 2009
An update on the PLAN officers to train on Brazilian Aircraft Carrier report
Six month ago, it was reported that China and Brazil had reached an agreement to train PLA Naval personnel in Brazil on aircraft carrier operations. (here) (here) The recently reached "five-point consensus" agreement during the Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim's visit to China seems to add credence to the earlier report.


China, Brazil reach five-point consensus to strengthen military exchanges

China, Brazil reach five-point consensus to strenghten military exchanges_English_Xinhua

English_Xinhua 2009-11-17 00:13:38

Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie (L) and visiting Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim inspect the guard of honour in Beijing, China, Nov. 16, 2009. (Xinhua/Liu Jiansheng)



BEIJING, Nov. 16 (Xinhua) -- China and Brazil here on Monday reached the five-point consensus to strengthen bilateral military exchanges during talks between their senior military officers.

Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie held talks with visiting Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim Monday afternoon.

The two sides have decided to increase group visits and strengthen young and middle-aged military officer exchanges. They would also seek to expand cooperation on military and personnel training and conduct exchanges and coordination in peacekeeping actions.

China and Brazil would enhance cooperation on military industry and science and technology. And a joint commission of the defense ministries of the two countries would be established for further exchanges and cooperation.

During the talks, Liang said China-Brazil relations have entered a new phase of comprehensive development since Chinese President Hu Jintao and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula visited each other's country in 2004.

The pragmatic cooperation in various areas between the two countries has been continuously enhanced and their strategic partnership has been increasingly deepened, Liang said, adding that their military ties have developed smoothly with frequent high-level visits and increased pragmatic exchanges and cooperation.

Liang said, the two armed forces are expected to explore new areas of cooperation and further their friendly cooperation.

Nelson Jobim said Brazil hoped to continuously deepen its pragmatic military cooperation with the Chinese armed forces within the framework of their strategic partnership.
Editor: Yan

Here is a good review from the "China Brief" back in June 12 on the training program.
single - The Jamestown Foundation[tt_news]=35116&tx_ttnews[backPid]=13&cHash=f072084889

Publication: China Brief Volume: 9 Issue: 12
June 12, 2009 08:14 AM Age: 157 days
Category: China Brief, In a Fortnight, Military/Security, China and the Asia-Pacific, Latin America
By: Russell Hsiao

NAe Sao Paulo

In a May 9 interview with Brazilian defense, strategy and intelligence news website Defasanet, Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim stated that Brazil and China had reached an agreement to train personnel from the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) in Brazil. In the interview (available in Portuguese), Jobim announced that the two sides reached a training agreement to stage PLAN officers aboard the NAe Sao Paulo, Brazil’s Clemenceau-class aircraft carrier (Defesanet, May 13). There has been no reported official confirmation from the Chinese government concerning this agreement, however, on May 19 the official Xinhua News Agency released a news report in its Spanish portal (no equivalent has been found in the news agency’s Chinese or English portal), which cites remarks that Jobim made to the media about the nature of the plan in question. The Xinhua report cited Jobim as saying that the agreement was reached in April during Navy Admiral Carlos Soares de Moura Neto’s official visit to Qingdao to attend the PLAN’s 60th Anniversary Naval Review (Xinhua News Agency [Spanish], May 20). The defense minister noted that the Chinese wanted aircraft carriers for power projection, and that he hopes naval cooperation between Brazil and China can serve as the gateway for defense cooperation in other areas (Defesanet, May 13, Xinhua News Agency [Spanish], May 20). Jobim is planning a visit to China in September or October, which analysts say is likely to finalize the training agreement.


Although the details of this alleged agreement are still unknown, given the chronic lack of funding for the NAe Sao Paulo within Brazil’s national budget, some observers speculate that a part of the deal may involve the Chinese paying for some of the restoration of the aircraft carrier in return for some real on-deck operational experience for its carrier officers. An article that appeared in a Chinese naval university’s website, “Why did China Choose Brazil to Train it Carrier Pilots?” referenced an unspecified source as saying that the Chinese will provide technical support to Brazil for constructing its nuclear submarines (Haijun.xaut.edu.cn, June 1). Western and Chinese analysts believe that at a minimum this agreement will allow the Chinese access to Brazilian naval aviation expertise in addition to the carrier itself. In any event, training of PLAN officers on NAe Sao Paulo would accelerate the development of Chinese capacity in naval aviation, which has been a major weakness in China’s efforts to operationalize an aircraft carrier.


There are currently nine navies with aircraft carriers in active service, and the United States, France, Russia and Brazil are the only four naval forces that have operational aircraft carriers capable of launching and recovering conventional aircraft. Reports that appeared in the Chinese press in the past have suggested that the PLAN is planning to employ the CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery) launch and recovery system for its carriers. This may explain why Chinese leaders have selected the NAe Sao Paulo as the operational carrier for training its future star carrier officers. Moreover, France is restricted from participating in any technical training that may lead to a possible transfer of sensitive technology to China due to the current EU embargo on China. On the other hand, Russian—and the British navy, which will launch its Queen Elizabeth class carriers from 2014 to 2018—operates STOVL (Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing) system, thus Brazil appears to be the only viable candidate for the PLAN if they intend to adopt the CATOBAR system. In addition, China's turn to Brazil may be the result of the standstill in Sino-Russian defense cooperation, Russia recently suspended negotiations to sell China—its number one client—the Su-33 fighter jet due to allegations that the Chinese are illegally copying the Su-27SK and other Russian military hardware and technology (Defense News, May 4; Haijun.xaut.edu.cn, June 1).

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Two things about the above article.

China’s leaders have talked for five decades about acquiring what they call “aircraft mother ships.” Spurred by dependence on safe sea lanes for exports and inbound shipments of oil, gas and iron ore, the world’s fastest-growing major economy is preparing to send a carrier to sea within a few years, military analysts say. Such a move in the Pacific, where the U.S. has dominated since World War II, would give China added power in territorial disputes with Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines.

*I dont see how it would give China any advantage with South Korea, Japan and the Phillippines since you have a US CV(N)BG stationed to Japan year round. It can also easily reach South Korea and the Phillipines in short order.

One thing they overlook is the the USN carriers are nuclear powered, they only require replentishment for food stores and av gas, not for main propulsion such as China's and India's will require.

China's carriers and soon to be India's carriers are fossile fueled so their respective groups can only move as fast and as far as their tankers can and are limited on range. And everybody knows that during war time the oilers are sitting ducks.

It will take them a long time,many accidents to come and many expenses to be paid for they havent even taken baby steps as of yet while the US has been running CVNBG's at full stride for atleast the last five decades.