New and Current Carriers

**Stan** · 11 Apr 07,, 12:12

Something I am particularly interested in nower days is the development of carriers by nations other than the US, without the budget of the US can other countries creat the same kind of force projection.

In particular i was wondering about the new CVF with the use of ski ramps and such will the cvf be able to manage as many sorties as a us carrier or be able to achieve similar results?,some factors i guess could play in to this.

- using a ski ramp and vertical landing will be much less stressful to the airframe of the jet thus allowing quicker turn around time on a jet?

- Royal navy probably couldnt afford for its planes to do the same amount of missions carried out on a us carrier? sounds silly but we all know gordon brown.

As other countries begin to include carriers in their fleets such as the Idian navy and the chinese will their carriers be able to match the influence a US carrier can have when parked of the shore of another nation.?

**Stan** · 11 Apr 07,, 12:13

an image i put in the russian carrier threa that i like.

CVF is gonna be a nice ship. we just need 2 of those and to keep 1 of the invincible class

btw this forum has been really boring today. i was hoping it would provide some mental stimuli during a down time in the office, common chaps

**Wraith601** · 12 Apr 07,, 03:38

A PRC carrier would wield a great deal of influence if sent to show the flag. That is until a US or allied carrier shows up and outclasses it.

**Stan** · 12 Apr 07,, 15:20

oh common guys normally you get right on with a thread of mine and help me out with interesting information and informed discussion.

first time i have thought 'dammit WAB board you suck'.

**Dreadnought** · 12 Apr 07,, 15:37

The new carrier bears a striking coincidence to the layout of a Nimitz class carrier. So Britian is going back to the large carriers im assuming this to be true? If so Im glad to see the Brits investing in the larger carriers. This means to me that they wish to remain a stable force at sea and possibly swell the numbers of the RN at present. When will the new carrier be delivered?

Ok had to do some quick reading about the new class.

I think its a smart move for Britain and France to share in the R&D departments. Since both have a smaller defence budget this should work out well. So I am assuming that they are going to keep atleast one Invincible class for Amphib Ops or Helo Ops or kept as a VSTOL? Have they decided yet on which they will keep out of the three? Would I be correct in assuming that it would be the Arc Royal since she just returned to the fleet just weeks ago?

**Stan** · 12 Apr 07,, 16:16

At this point the mod hasnt been very clear with what will happen to the 2 remaining aircraft carriers.

Ark royal has as you correctly pointed out just returned to the fleet after a refit that according to sources will see her into 2015.

Illustrious is at the moment at work and hasnt had this refit.

The new carriers wont likely be in service until 2013 and 2015 if we are lucky. If the mod were to take in Illustrious for a refit in 2010 we could say that we would be lucky enough to have a 3 carrier fleet.

I guess the issue is will the defence budget allow for this.

Considering that we are very likely to have a conservative government in 2009 we might get lucky with armed forces spending.

I think the main issues will come down to can britain maintain a teir 2 navy with the rate of decomissioning we have seen in the past 4 years.

Clearly the spanish and italian navies are quickly catching up with the french and british and they have a much more modern fleet, including a small carrier platform. if they decide to increase spending and work up to a cvf size carrier that france and britain will have to give up their notions of being the leading naval powers of europe.

with the increases in carrier capable nations its an interesting time for those of us that forget about battleships and look at carriers

**Dreadnought** · 12 Apr 07,, 16:25

Clearly the spanish and italian navies are quickly catching up with the french and british and they have a much more modern fleet, including a small carrier platform. if they decide to increase spending and work up to a cvf size carrier that france and britain will have to give up their notions of being the leading naval powers of europe.

Wow things really do come 360^ given time and politics.

Maybe perhaps the four/five major powers of Europe (France,Britain,Germany,Spain and Italy) should get together and design a newage common class of CV/VSTOL carrier. This would benefit all involved as sharing in the cost,development,building and refitting and could even be utilized later down the road in training and what we would call midships cruises. Divide the costs five ways and work together in strengthening Europes navies all together. Just an off the wall thought.

**Stan** · 12 Apr 07,, 16:33

dread your right but to be honest we are shocking at co operation. The only time is seems to work is when one takes the lead and that normally means you lose a partner.

Look at the euro fighter its a top plane but in the wrestle for control between uk and france we lost the french.

The Spanish have done a deal with the dutch and germans with regard to their new frigate class ships which are excellent.

the problem we have is that while working together would be fantastic every nation believes they need something different.
Also the type of operations that are conducted by each nation are vastly different.

**~~JMH~~** · 12 Apr 07,, 17:13

I seriously doubt the British government will actually have two CVF's built for the Royal Navy considering the great reluctance, and delay in ordering and cuts in numbers of Daring Class Destroyers that will be needed to escort these carriers. Out of 12 planned Daring Class Destroyers, only six have been ordered and out of those six, four will be delivered to the Royal Navy and the remaining two will be sold to Saudi Arabia. With only four missile escorts, only one or two would be available to escort a an Aircraft Carrier. Besides, France has a Nuclear Carrier which eliminates any need for a large British Carrier. The only hope for the Royal Navy is if the Labour Party in the UK loses power and is replaced by a Conservative government in the next elections. This is unlikely to happen beacuse the millions of welfare depandent voters in Wales and Scotland will ensure a Labour victory in England.

**Stan** · 12 Apr 07,, 17:34

Im sorry JMH

but why on earth would the fact that the french have a nuclear carrier mean that britain does not require one.

Britain and France have very different outlooks on the world and have been involved in very different conflicts.

As for your belief that Conservatives wont regain power.. have you seen the polls im pretty sure in 1.5 years time you will see a tory government back in downing street.

your right though about the destroyers but im sure that we can get these back on track.

**Dreadnought** · 12 Apr 07,, 17:41

Originally Posted by Stan

dread your right but to be honest we are shocking at co operation. The only time is seems to work is when one takes the lead and that normally means you lose a partner.

Look at the euro fighter its a top plane but in the wrestle for control between uk and france we lost the french.

The Spanish have done a deal with the dutch and germans with regard to their new frigate class ships which are excellent.

the problem we have is that while working together would be fantastic every nation believes they need something different.
Also the type of operations that are conducted by each nation are vastly different.

Ah point noted. I should have realized given the directions all involved go at different time/instances.

**~~JMH~~** · 12 Apr 07,, 17:43

"Im sorry JMH

but why on earth would the fact that the french have a nuclear carrier mean that britain does not require one.

Britain and France have very different outlooks on the world and have been involved in very different conflicts.

As for your belief that Conservatives wont regain power.. have you seen the polls im pretty sure in 1.5 years time you will see a tory government back in downing street.

your right though about the destroyers but im sure that we can get these back on track."

European Union socialist government plans (France, UK, Germany, Belgium) for the defence of Europe are comitted to eventually dissolving NATO and merging all Western European Military forces into a European Union Defence force based in Brussels and Paris. The primary Naval element in this new European Union military will be the French Navy, which is why the current UK Labour government is comitted to reducing the Royal Navy to a coastal defence force.

**Stan** · 12 Apr 07,, 19:09

i dont think your right on that jmh

**kato** · 12 Apr 07,, 22:08

Originally Posted by JMH

European Union socialist government plans (France, UK, Germany, Belgium)

Did i miss a couple election rounds?

Blair and most of Labour is still "Third Way", France still conservative, Germany in a Grand Coalition under a conservative chancellor, and Belgium... ok, they have a party calling itself "socialist" in a nominally center-left government.

Originally Posted by JMH

for the defence of Europe are comitted to eventually dissolving NATO and merging all Western European Military forces into a European Union Defence force based in Brussels and Paris. The primary Naval element in this new European Union military will be the French Navy, which is why the current UK Labour government is comitted to reducing the Royal Navy to a coastal defence force.

There is no conceivable way in the immediate or medium-term future that France would allow its military to be dissolved and placed under an International Command. There was actually a plan calling for something similar about 5 years ago, calling for unification of the German and French militaries. Was smashed down good.
What you probably mean is that (rather good) plan for a European Coast Guard (organized similar to NATO) with a central command.

That said, there are very specific requirements in each country. Just look at e.g. the LHD/LPHs bought in Spain (Juan Carlos), France (Mistral class), the UK (HMS Ocean) and Italy (Cavour) in the last years. Of those, Cavour and Juan Carlos share their main focus (as VSTOL carriers), HMS Ocean is primarily a massive helo / air assault platform, and the Mistrals offer pretty much the same as Ocean with additional amphibious capability by LCU/LCAC.
If you had combined those into a single procurement project though (and the WEU has groups working on aligning such things at least), you would have gotten... what? Let's play that out...

Presumably a light carrier that:
a) the Spanish would complain about not supporting enough VTOL aircraft (omg, only 14 instead of 16!)
b) the British and Italians complaining that only four of its landing pads are hardened for Merlins (never mind that no one said anything about anything beyond 10-ton helos, and that the French happily dig out some Super Frelons to test the limits)
c) the French complaining that it needs triple the crew they want to put on it (and that it's too cramped anyway)
d) the British finding out that their landing craft don't fit in the well deck (cuz it's designed to French specs)
e) the French *****ing about "it not being able to transport 40 helicopters"
f) the Italians not paying due to the ski jump being a tenth of a degree off their submitted requirements (which of course would differ from the spanish ones operating the same aircraft)
g) the French sneaking a Herakles radar on the specs, and shifting the development for this radar cost to this project secretly
h) the Italians trying to fit 2,000 soldiers on it, then complaining that the ship doesn't support the same number of aircraft and tanks as in the specs cuz the hangar and tank deck are cramped with people (gee, someone should have thought of that!)
i) everyone complaining about the cost in general, because its three times what they wanted
j) the whole thing only fitting in like three yards in all of Europe

I could see it. Really.

**BB62squid** · 12 Apr 07,, 22:20

I was actually reading an article (sorry, misplaced the source for the moment) that broadly supports what JMH is driving at-in fact, it states clearly that the gov't of the UK has accepted that the French navy will be the dominant naval power of the EU...If true, I can only imagine that Nelson is rolling over in his grave at the prospect.
Not to bash the EU, but I question the validity of a french-centric military establishment. The French have not exactly established themselves as a military juggernaut...