AEGIS Systems

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 09:56

There are also the APAR radars in-service aboards the new Dutch and German Air Defense Frigates and the EMPAR radars that will be installed on the new French and Italian Air Defense Frigates.

These radars are all active phased array systems vice the passive U.S. SPY-1 radar ie they dont need separate illuminators. In any case with Aster missles that will be used by the UK, France and Italy an illuminator isnt needed if I understand correctly..

The UK Sampson and the French/Italian EMPAR are two-faced rotating radars vice the four fixed- faced radars of the APAR and the SPY-1.

This reduces weight so they can be higher in the ship increasing the radar horizon distance for aquiring sea-skimmers more effectively but brings increased risk of mechanical failure. I would think they would require rather more maintenance also.

The APAR fixed array was able to reduce weight and be high in the ship.

Im sure there are other issues not the least of which the SPY-1 is based on 1960s-70s technology.

As with all sytems there are trade-offs and compromises.

**Orcaborealis** · 06 Mar 05, 12:18

Originally Posted by rickusn

These radars are all active phased array systems vice the passive U.S. SPY-1 radar ie they dont need separate illuminators. In any case with Aster missles that will be used by the UK, France and Italy an illuminator isnt needed if I understand correctly..

The UK Sampson and the French/Italian EMPAR are two-faced rotating radars vice the four fixed- faced radars of the APAR and the SPY-1.

This reduces weight so they can be higher in the ship increasing the radar horizon distance for aquiring sea-skimmers more effectively but brings increased risk of mechanical failure. I would think they would require rather more maintenance also.
.

Actually, EMPAR is a passive phased array radar. And, it is a one-faced rotator. I am not impressed with Empar, and this lacking capability was one of the main reasons the UK opted out of this cooperation and stated developing SAMPSON, which is a active two-faced phased array radar.

APAR is a four-faced active phased array radar, thus it looks a lot like SPY-1 which is four-faced, but passive phased array. The difference lies in the elements, and graceful degradation is a nice feature of those active phased array radars. APAR is X-band, and is doing all fire control.

All the Euro AAW ships (except those using AEGIS) are using the SMART-L long range volume search radar, it is almost identical in those ships (UK Type-45. German F-124, Dutch LCF, French/Italian Horizon). It is a HUGE rotator, and it has to be constructed very solid to avoid mechanical failure.

Aster needs uplink information, because the active radar seeker on the missile has a small field of view. Once it aquires the target, the so called pif-paf system will ensure a direct hit, or very near miss, so the warhed can be as small as 15 kg.

One question: I have seen mentioned by a US Admiral that the SM-2 IIIB can shoot down aircraft at a range of 80 NM. Can this be correct?

And, could the SM-2 IIIB use the IR seeker for terminal guidance, provided it is guided very very close to the target by the Aegis uplink providing information from the ships SPY-1 radar?
I know the SM-2 IIIB can not work outside of the ships radar horizon.

Regards
Orca

**Bill** · 06 Mar 05, 12:32

"Were they able to overcome the blast effects of the main guns on the electronics of the Aegis system? I was under the impression that that was the Achilles Heel of shipping such advanced systems on the battleships."

It was never installed, but one would assume they felt they could since they undertook the project to begin with.

"And upstate PA? Where do you find this information?? I'd probably give up my weekend ration of rum for your source."

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 15:29

Orca. Thanks for the corrections on EMPAR. I wasnt positive on that but I assumed it was similar to Sampson.

Questions:

So am I correct then that ASTER doesnt need illumination? Just an uplink is used for missle guidance?

Why is the UK Sampson radar an active phased-array radar if they also use the ASTER missles?

Another issue you touched on:

The Burke class DDGs and at least the new Spanish Air Defense Frigates get by w/o a volume/long-range/early-warning type radar.

I understand that while it apparently actually necessary for the AEGIS system it does provide redundancy ergo the SPS-49 radar on the Ticonderoga CG-47 cruisers.

Question:

Are the SMART-L/ ARABEL versions necessary with the other phased-array radars.

In fact do the two radars perform the same functions? Im a little unclear on exactly what the ARABEL radar does.

On the SM-2 missle:

Apparently the mid-course guidance feature allows the most efficient trajectory path to the target vice line-of-sight if I remember correctly.

Range: 40-90 nautical miles (46-104 statute miles)

On the IR exerpt from globalsecurity.org:

Block IIIB is the next step in the continuing evolution of the Standard Missile family, incorporating an infrared (IR) guidance mode capability developed in Missile Homing Improvement Program (MHIP) with the radio frequency (RF) semi-active guidance system of the proven SM-2 Block IIIA. The MHIP dual-mode RF/IR guidance capability is being incorporated to counter a specific fielded and proliferating electronic warfare systems in existing aircraft and ASCM threats. OPEVAL of SM-2 Block IIIB was conducted during April 1996, with missile firings by an Aegis cruiser that was completing workup training for deployment. Based on OPEVAL results, SM-2 Block IIIB is operationally effective and suitable.

And one from the USN fact file online:

All are guided by inertial navigation and mid-course commands from AWS, and semi-active radar or an IR sensor for terminal homing.

Thanks for any info, answers or direction. Tecnical stuff isnt really my forte. LOL

Rick

**Orcaborealis** · 06 Mar 05, 16:22

Originally Posted by rickusn

Questions:

So am I correct then that ASTER doesnt need illumination? Just an uplink is used for missle guidance?

Yes, there is no need for illumination for the Aster missile, and the missile should (in theory at least) be able to engage a target outside the ships radar horizon, but only if the ships radar can guide the missile close enough so that the missiles own radar can aquire the target. Uplink is needed.

Why is the UK Sampson radar an active phased-array radar if they also use the ASTER missles?

SAMPSON is S-band and couldn't illuminate any target. Active PAR (Phased Array Radars) does give advantages, like: graceful degradation (a part of the radar could continue to work even if some of it was damaged), individual beam forming -beams can be created by a cluster of elements, and one radar can make several beams, apparently the possibility for a higher resolution (hence LM is touting the S-Bar PAR for ballistic missile defense and enhanced littoral performance). On the negative side, the radar antenna itself will get a little heavier with active elements, and those active elements are very expensive. APAR is x-band, thus the radar doesn't have to be very large, but the range is max 150 km (80 NM).

It seems that SAMPSON could do it all, and the SMART-L version on the Type-45 gives redundancy and better volume search capability.

Another issue you touched on:

The Burke class DDGs and at least the new Spanish Air Defense Frigates get by w/o a volume/long-range/early-warning type radar.

I understand that while it apparently actually necessary for the AEGIS system it does provide redundancy ergo the SPS-49 radar on the Ticonderoga CG-47 cruisers.

Question:

Are the SMART-L/ ARABEL versions necessary with the other phased-array radars.

SPY-1 is S-band and can do longe range volume search functions and provide FC data, but there have to be separate illuminators for x-band terminal guidance. If there is a lot of incoming vampires, the SPY-1 will give priority to the tracking of these hostile vampires, and there are less resources for long range volume search, this is the reason for the SPS-49 on the Ticos. But the SPY-1D is more advanced than SPY-1 A/B, so there probably wasn't a pressing need for an additional volume search radar.

In fact do the two radars perform the same functions? Im a little unclear on exactly what the ARABEL radar does.

ARABEL is a smaller version of EMPAR, and has been bought by Singapore, I believe, for their new frigates. Both are G-band one-faced rotating passive phased array radars, providing FC quality data for missile uplink. Imagine one radar face must keep track of all contacts, although there are a separate volume search radars on the ships.

SMART-L is a C-band (long wavelenght) rotating volume search radar, placed aft on the ship (near or on the hangar roof).

Actually, the F-124 and the LCF will need both radars working to be able to do their mission, one radar down is a big problem.

On the SM-2 missle:

Apparently the mid-course guidance feature allows the most efficient trajectory path to the target vice line-of-sight if I remember correctly.

Range: 40-90 nautical miles (46-104 statute miles)

On the IR exerpt from globalsecurity.org:

Block IIIB is the next step in the continuing evolution of the Standard Missile family, incorporating an infrared (IR) guidance mode capability developed in Missile Homing Improvement Program (MHIP) with the radio frequency (RF) semi-active guidance system of the proven SM-2 Block IIIA. The MHIP dual-mode RF/IR guidance capability is being incorporated to counter a specific fielded and proliferating electronic warfare systems in existing aircraft and ASCM threats. OPEVAL of SM-2 Block IIIB was conducted during April 1996, with missile firings by an Aegis cruiser that was completing workup training for deployment. Based on OPEVAL results, SM-2 Block IIIB is operationally effective and suitable.

And one from the USN fact file online:

All are guided by inertial navigation and mid-course commands from AWS, and semi-active radar or an IR sensor for terminal homing.

Thanks for any info, answers or direction. Tecnical stuff isnt really my forte. LOL

Rick

Thanks for the info, seems as SM- IIIB can skip illumination!

Regards
Orca

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 16:51

Thanks for the info. It clears up alot of questions I had.

"ARABEL is a smaller version of EMPAR, and has been bought by Singapore, I believe, for their new frigates. Both are G-band one-faced rotating passive phased array radars, providing FC quality data for missile uplink. Imagine one radar face must keep track of all contacts, although there are a separate volume search radars on the ships."

My 2000 Combat Fleets shows this radar on the French Horizon Frigate but that is in error. No? As it shows SMART-L on the Italian version.

My 2005-2006 Combat Fleets has not yet arrived having been lost by the good ole U.S. Postal service the first try. LOL

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 17:36

"ARABEL is a smaller version of EMPAR, and has been bought by Singapore, I believe, for their new frigates. Both are G-band one-faced rotating passive phased array radars, providing FC quality data for missile uplink. Imagine one radar face must keep track of all contacts, although there are a separate volume search radars on the ships."

Went to the Thales site:

Arabel is on the new Saudi Frigates and intended for the French Carrier C de G is an I band radar. EMPAR is produced by AMS.

Surveillance Systems
ARABEL

For the antimissile self- defence of major vessels, Thales France has developed the 3D multifunction radar, ARABEL. This radar is intended for the French Navy's air- defence, antimissile SAAM system, in particular for the nuclear- powered aircraft- carrier, "Charles de Gaulle". Operational capabilities:
3D surveillance (360° in azimuth and 90° in elevation),
track confirmation and initiation over the same antenna revolution,
tracking of more than 130 targets and up- link to missiles in flight,
simultaneous engagement of all types of missiles,
automatic adaptation to the threat and to the environment (clutter, ECM), integrated ECCM.

Heracles another Thales product is to be installed on the new Singapore frigates and the proposed French/Italian FREMM frigates is an E/F band radar.

Herakles

MULTIFUNCTION 3D SURVEILLANCE AND FIRE CONTROL RADAR
For self- defence, extended self- defence and the establishment of the medium- to long- range situation of vessels, Thales has developed the Herakles multifunction radar. HERAKLES is designed to equip frigates as the sole radar on board and can be associated to all types of active or semiactive homing missiles. Establishment of the 3D air, jamming and surface situation, missile detection (SSM and ARM) and weapon deployment (missiles and guns) are performed concurrently.
Herakles is selected for the FREMM program.

Thales Product Portfolio
Apar
Arabel
DA08
Herakles
Jupiter/LW08
MRR
MW08
Scout
Seapar
Sea Tiger Mk2
Smart-L
Smart-S Mk2
Variant

Orca Im learning alot here but it does get a tad bit confusing. LOL

**Orcaborealis** · 06 Mar 05, 18:29

Originally Posted by rickusn

Went to the Thales site:

Arabel is on the new Saudi Frigates and intended for the French Carrier C de G is an I band radar. EMPAR is produced by AMS.

Surveillance Systems
ARABEL

For the antimissile self- defence of major vessels, Thales France has developed the 3D multifunction radar, ARABEL. This radar is intended for the French Navy's air- defence, antimissile SAAM system, in particular for the nuclear- powered aircraft- carrier, "Charles de Gaulle". Operational capabilities:
3D surveillance (360° in azimuth and 90° in elevation),
track confirmation and initiation over the same antenna revolution,
tracking of more than 130 targets and up- link to missiles in flight,
simultaneous engagement of all types of missiles,
automatic adaptation to the threat and to the environment (clutter, ECM), integrated ECCM.

That's right, Arabel is on the Saudi frigates, Heracles is on the Singaporean frigates, I mixed them up. In additon, the Singaporean frigates is using a volume search radar, I think it is Jupiter, not sure what the Saudis are using for volume search, perhaps jupiter.

SAAM is the short-range system, mostly for self-defense using Aster 15 missiles, but it might be able to use Aster 30. ARABEL/SAAM is used on the Saudi frigates, while Heracles/SAAM will be used on the new french and Italian multi-purpose frigates (FREMM).

EMPAR/PAAMS will be used on both the French and Italian Horizon class AAW frigates.

Heracles and Arabel is both one-faced passive phased array radars, but Heracles is E/F band (E/F band is the same as S-band, used by SPY-1), Arabel is G-band (shorter wavelength).
EMPAR is larger than Arabel, with more link channels (16) and longer range, Arabel has 10 link channels. Otherwise, the two radars are very similar.

The longest wavelenghts are the best choice for long range volume search, they "paint the sky" more effective. But if you want extremely good precision/resolution, then a short wavelengt, like X-band, is better, hence X-band for illumination/FC.

The longest practical wavelength is C/D-band, then E/F band (= S-band, old name), then G/H band, and then I/X band for firecontrol.

SMART-L is C/D-band; (maybe SPS-49 as well?)
SPY-1 and HERACLES and SAMPSON and SMART-S (not a true PAR) are E/F band (a good compromise between precision/resolution and range);
EMPAR and ARABEL and MRR-3d NG are G-band (and there are more radars, MRR is 3d but not PAR);
SPG-62 and APAR and STIR are X-band (Firecontrol mostly, but APAR should be very capable of detecting sea skimming missiles in a littoral envirmonment, hence the development of SPQ-9B, also X-band, for this purpose).

Off-topic slightly, but for a Norwegian like me it is nice to learn that the new Nansen-class of frigates with SPY-1F have space for 32 mk41 cells, so far only 16 cells have been mentioned:
"There is actually space/weight for 3 more 8cell Mk41 vls. Only one will be mounted and another can be installed "in the field" (wires and stuff is already in place), but the last 2 must be installed and wiered up at the yard and that takes time adn effort. This means that in the future there can be 32 ESSM and up to 24 "other" missiles that fit the mk41, or 128 ESSM but the latter would be pointless. "

About the AEGIS system aboard these frigates:
"The hardware changes are mainly the consoles, but there is also a computer with software between the radar and console that acts like a filter. This filter adds information from other sensors on the ship and delivers and "image" to the consoles that differs from what a "mainstream" spy1f/aegis console would. The radar is standard and so are the others sensors. The thing that makes this system unike is the way its filters and presents the information.

The US is also improving their aegis system and making it better for work in the littoral enviroment but i have no idea how far they have come and what approach they are using but it will not be the same because Kongsberg can not sell the system that will be used on nansen. The skjold class will use a similar system, but the sensor input will ofcourse be different. "

Regards
Orca

Heracles another Thales product is to be installed on the new Singapore frigates and the proposed French/Italian FREMM frigates is an E/F band radar.

Herakles

MULTIFUNCTION 3D SURVEILLANCE AND FIRE CONTROL RADAR
For self- defence, extended self- defence and the establishment of the medium- to long- range situation of vessels, Thales has developed the Herakles multifunction radar. HERAKLES is designed to equip frigates as the sole radar on board and can be associated to all types of active or semiactive homing missiles. Establishment of the 3D air, jamming and surface situation, missile detection (SSM and ARM) and weapon deployment (missiles and guns) are performed concurrently.
Herakles is selected for the FREMM program.

Thales Product Portfolio
Apar
Arabel
DA08
Herakles
Jupiter/LW08
MRR
MW08
Scout
Seapar
Sea Tiger Mk2
Smart-L
Smart-S Mk2
Variant

Orca Im learning alot here but it does get a tad bit confusing. LOL

:-)

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 19:19

"In additon, the Singaporean frigates is using a volume search radar, I think it is Jupiter, not sure what the Saudis are using for volume search, perhaps jupiter."

The Saudis are using the French DRBV 26D early-warning radar.

Apparently the Singapore ships use the Herakles alone somewhat like the USN uses the SPY-1 as the site below doesnt list a VSR or Early Warning radar. From the Naval Technology site:

The Herakles multi-function radar, supplied by Thales, is the frigate's primary surveillance radar. The phased array radar is a passive, three-dimensional, search and fire control radar operating over E- and F-bands. The radar, installed in a radome on top of the main mast, carries out long-range air and surface surveillance and weapon control. The Herakles radar is integrated with the Aster air defence missile system.

The frigates surface search and navigation radar is the Terma Scanter 2001, operating at I-band.

Yes the Nansen class is being built with only 8 MK 41 VLS cells with quad-pack ESSM missles for a total of 32 missles but has space reserved for another 24 cells.

AFAIK these ships also are being built w/o a VSR/Early-warning radar or am I mistaken?

BTW my wifes dads family is originally from the Oslo area.

**Orcaborealis** · 06 Mar 05, 19:45

Originally Posted by rickusn

The Saudis are using the French DRBV 26D early-warning radar.

Apparently the Singapore ships use the Herakles alone somewhat like the USN uses the SPY-1 as the site below doesnt list a VSR or Early Warning radar. From the Naval Technology site:

The Herakles multi-function radar, supplied by Thales, is the frigate's primary surveillance radar. The phased array radar is a passive, three-dimensional, search and fire control radar operating over E- and F-bands. The radar, installed in a radome on top of the main mast, carries out long-range air and surface surveillance and weapon control. The Herakles radar is integrated with the Aster air defence missile system.

The frigates surface search and navigation radar is the Terma Scanter 2001, operating at I-band.

Thanks, I wasn't aware the Heracles is a stand-alone radar, but it makes sense, as it is S-band.

Yes the Nansen class is being built with only 8 MK 41 VLS cells with quad-pack ESSM missles for a total of 32 missles but has space reserved for another 24 cells.

I actually didn't know this before recently, the RNoN has only mentioned space for 8 more cells, those that are already wired. They really should improve their information policy...to much secrecy is not good.

AFAIK these ships also are being built w/o a VSR/Early-warning radar or am I mistaken?

You are correct. There are some speculation that the AWS-9 (last upgrade to the Oslo frigates) would be used as a VSR in addition to SPY-1F on the Nansen class, but this seems false, there are no official document mentioning this.

BTW my wifes dads family is originally from the Oslo area.

Cool :-)

I am living in central Norway.

There are now ca 1200 US Marines in Norway, taking part in exercise Battle Griffin:

Battle Griffin - in english

900 000 Norwegians emigrated to USA, only Ireland had a higher emigration/population ratio.

According to a recent survey, it seems 4.5 million US citizens claims to be of Norwegian decent, almost the same as the population of Norway.

Regards
Orca

**TopHatter** · 06 Mar 05, 20:17

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"Were they able to overcome the blast effects of the main guns on the electronics of the Aegis system? I was under the impression that that was the Achilles Heel of shipping such advanced systems on the battleships."

It was never installed, but one would assume they felt they could since they undertook the project to begin with.

"And upstate PA? Where do you find this information?? I'd probably give up my weekend ration of rum for your source."

I was chatting with Dick Landgraff this afternoon about the Aegis/Iowa thing.
He agreed that the system could take it, though guns would have a somewhat limited traverse (like in the 80s?)
He also mentioned that some design work was done for a 96-cell VLS and Aegis, but nothing else was done with it.
Was good to talk to him, haven't seen him online in awhile

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 20:36

Thanks for the Norway info. LOL My wife got a chuckle out of it. She would say "Hi" to you in Norwegian but says she forgot. Im not to tell her dad as he still speaks the language fluently. LOL

Yes I had heard that the AWS-9 was to be installed also but apparently it was either erroneous or it was deleted during the design phase.

But it would have made some sense to recycle these sets off the Oslo class frigates as they are only a decade old or less.

But costs, manning, space and/or weight all could be factors in not incorporating their use on the new frigates.

**Orcaborealis** · 06 Mar 05, 21:27

Hi in norwegian would be "hei"!

Yes, there are many factors involved, and there is also the question of RCS, I don't think the AWS-9 is stealthy.

I don't know what the RNoN are going to to with the AWS-9, maybe they will be sold? Maybe use it on the coast guard vessels? A new 3100 CG vessel was just completed, and the 6500 ton KV Svalbard still has not got a decent radar, which is necessary for helicopter operations.

Regards
Orca

**rickusn** · 06 Mar 05, 22:15

LOL Thanks.

Yes RCS is an issue also how much isnt clear by the drawings Ive seen so I declined to mention it.

The other dispositions you mention all have merit.

**Bill** · 07 Mar 05, 11:23

"Sniper, do you have any data on the Chinese radar? How do we know these are active apertures and not standard phased arrays?"

Cap C was actually the one discussing the Chinese radars, but so far as i know, they are indeed standard phased arrays.

I'm not exactly a radar expert though, and i read a lot of data that is quite frankly very hard to keep properly sorted in my head(gets harder with age it seems, lol).

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