India's Navy Vs. China's Navy

**Officer of Engineers** · 14 Oct 08,, 15:10

The US would support Freedom of the Seas.

**kuku** · 14 Oct 08,, 15:25

Originally Posted by Patel4You

Thank you for your reply... In the past 5 years I have noticed a dramatic navy build up from China. From "Aegis" type destroyers to the introduction of LPDs.

India too has been building up its navy, but at a slower pace. Things like America's retired Austin LPDs and Project 17.

Chinese build up is phenomenal , no ones is going to catch their numbers now, or in near future. Its the numbers first and then improvements as they increase.
And its china, India seems behind as far as shipbuilding goes.

Indian buildup is lagging in the very similar yet opposite ways, all the improvements first and no numbers around, plus the sourcing delays from various parties involved.

I could think of one big one gap both have - ASW.

Sir, What are the current ASW capabilities and what in your opinion is lacking (on either side).

**Officer of Engineers** · 14 Oct 08,, 15:48

Originally Posted by kuku

Sir, What are the current ASW capabilities and what in your opinion is lacking (on either side).

Most obvious one? The lack of an accousitic signature database.

**Dreadnought** · 14 Oct 08,, 15:51

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Most obvious one? The lack of an accousitic signature database.

As usual Sir, Spot On. It takes a long time to build that library.

**Transient** · 14 Oct 08,, 15:54

My 2 cents - I think the ASW gap is far worse on the PLAN side than the India side. Indian vessels are more comprehensively equipped for ASW. I am not too clear on the current level of training of the Indians in ASW, but they do have an important advantage over their PLAN counterparts in this area, one I consider more far important than even hardware. They have access to joint warfighting exercises with other countries who are truly proficient in ASW like the Aussies, US, and Japan. I remember India also does joint ASW exercises with Singapore as well in SIMBEX. PLAN has no such exercises with other navies, as far as I can recall the exercises it has done with other navies so far are limited in scope, mostly 'search and rescue' level type of exercises.

**Dreadnought** · 14 Oct 08,, 16:07

The only way to build that data base is to embark many a mile at sea and keep your ears open.

**Officer of Engineers** · 14 Oct 08,, 16:13

Accousitic signatures are the one thing that is not shared, not even between allies.

**payeng** · 15 Oct 08,, 09:59

Anybody any updates about the status of Indian Aircraft Carrier, or any photo link from its construction site?

**tphuang** · 16 Oct 08,, 22:10

Originally Posted by Transient

My 2 cents - I think the ASW gap is far worse on the PLAN side than the India side. Indian vessels are more comprehensively equipped for ASW. I am not too clear on the current level of training of the Indians in ASW, but they do have an important advantage over their PLAN counterparts in this area, one I consider more far important than even hardware. They have access to joint warfighting exercises with other countries who are truly proficient in ASW like the Aussies, US, and Japan. I remember India also does joint ASW exercises with Singapore as well in SIMBEX. PLAN has no such exercises with other navies, as far as I can recall the exercises it has done with other navies so far are limited in scope, mostly 'search and rescue' level type of exercises.

I believe they had something like this in peace mission 2005.

currently, the PLAN ships are generally not tasked with ASW roles, because these are left to submarines and sub-chasers. Although, recent pictures indicate that some of the Jianghu ships and recent ships like 054A, 052B/C are all equipped with TAS. Still, for green water operations, the diesel subs and sub-chasers will be able to help in ASW effort. Not only that, they apparently are operating their own SOSUS http://www.gertzfile.com/gertzfile/ring050908.html

If this is deployed, then that will help their acoustic signature library a little bit also (since the NATO submarines have been known to sail around Chinese waters to record Chinese submarine signatures).

As for blue water operations, they really haven't got to that point yet. I suppose most of their ASW tasks will be resting on the SSNs, but we will see. PLAN's expansion has been pretty well distributed, it doesn't appear to me that they will forget anything. People only notice their submarines, destroyers and frigates, but they've also been building elint ships, medical ships, surveillance ships, replenishment ships, MCM ships, target ships and coastal fleet. In fact, one of the main reason 054A has slowed down production recently is because HP shipyard has been building so many tug ships. We might need to wait until 054B, but PLAN has not forgotten about ASW.

**Transient** · 17 Oct 08,, 02:25

I believe they had something like this in peace mission 2005.

Yes, you're right. I had throught it to only be a limited exercise for the media circus. Still, a exercise with a navy which has deteriorated so badly over the past decade and a half, in a warfare skill described as highly perishable without constant practice? Compared to the Indian Navy which will have constant practice with capable navies through SIMBEX and Malabar?

currently, the PLAN ships are generally not tasked with ASW roles, because these are left to submarines and sub-chasers. Although, recent pictures indicate that some of the Jianghu ships and recent ships like 054A, 052B/C are all equipped with TAS.

All the 054As and 052Cs are equipped with TAS? I thought only some were?

Still, for green water operations, the diesel subs and sub-chasers will be able to help in ASW effort.

To a limited extent. Sub-chasers are not worth much, SSKs are better platforms. Though I would say that SSKs as ASW platforms are limited compared to SSNs. PLAN's 2 093s are what I would count as true ASW capable platforms, not the rest of its SSKs. ASW is an inherently active proposition, and SSKs are pretty much 'passive' in nature by virtue of their mobility limitations. Perhaps only high performance SSKs like Oyashios, Collins and perhaps the Yuans are exceptions.

Not only that, they apparently are operating their own SOSUS

In the Bohai Sea. Quite limited, even Taiwan has 2 low freq arrays located north and south of the island.

We might need to wait until 054B, but PLAN has not forgotten about ASW.

If we can identify the PLAN's painful weakness in ASW, I'm sure they can too. What's limiting them is operational experience and technical capability, certainly not lack of awareness.

**ace16807** · 17 Oct 08,, 03:22

Originally Posted by payeng

Anybody any updates about the status of Indian Aircraft Carrier, or any photo link from its construction site?

Are you referring to the indigenous one, or the one they're getting from Russia?

**payeng** · 21 Oct 08,, 21:48

Originally Posted by ace16807

Are you referring to the indigenous one, or the one they're getting from Russia?

The Indigenous project.

The link for INS vikramaditya is herein: link

**tphuang** · 26 Oct 08,, 04:02

Originally Posted by Transient

Yes, you're right. I had throught it to only be a limited exercise for the media circus. Still, a exercise with a navy which has deteriorated so badly over the past decade and a half, in a warfare skill described as highly perishable without constant practice? Compared to the Indian Navy which will have constant practice with capable navies through SIMBEX and Malabar?

It's a problem, but I do agree more with the previous point that lack of acoustic library is probably the biggest problem.

All the 054As and 052Cs are equipped with TAS? I thought only some were?

The fit for 054A should be the same and I think also for 052C. And I can't say for sure, other than that from what we saw on the ships that have TAS, 054A/052C also look like they have them.

To a limited extent. Sub-chasers are not worth much, SSKs are better platforms. Though I would say that SSKs as ASW platforms are limited compared to SSNs. PLAN's 2 093s are what I would count as true ASW capable platforms, not the rest of its SSKs. ASW is an inherently active proposition, and SSKs are pretty much 'passive' in nature by virtue of their mobility limitations. Perhaps only high performance SSKs like Oyashios, Collins and perhaps the Yuans are exceptions.

yeah, sub-chasers are pretty archaic stuff. They are trying to put some use into all these old ships like the Jianghus and sub-chasers by putting TAS on them.

In the Bohai Sea. Quite limited, even Taiwan has 2 low freq arrays located north and south of the island.

I can't say, don't know the details.