Best WWII Battleship

**temujin77** · 20 Dec 06, 05:00

Back to my original note... look at how beautiful Yamato is as a battleship... Sure the Iowa BBs are more advanced, but they can't match the streamlined look of the Yamato-class

http://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=1
http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=1590
http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=1593
http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=1963

Even when Yamato goes, she goes with a bang:

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=1956

How can you not love this class of battleships?

**RustyBattleship** · 20 Dec 06, 05:41

Sigh! Too many to quote.

First, I stand corrected that Yamato was headed for Okinawa rather than Saipan (don't know why I said that).

Secondly, the comment about the entire fleet pounding her supports my opinion that Japanese strategy had turned to mass suicide rather than a more survivor type attitude. For example, over 5,000 airplanes AND pilots had been prepped for a mass suicide attack on the US Fleet. Tenns of Thousands of US servicemen would have died and many critical ships sunk or heavily damaged with a loss of "only" 5,000 pilots.

Thirdly, I agree that the Yamato class were perhaps the most esthetic to look at. But they were designed as Battleships for shore bombardment and ship to ship only.

Our fast classes of Battleships were designed for inner ring escort AA defense for fleet arrangements at the time (Carriers in the center, then BBs, then CAs, etc.). Only the main batteries were intended for shore bombardment or ship to ship engagement. The secondary batteries (5"/38s) were primarily for AA though they could supply some rapid fire shore bombardment if necessary. Then they were supplemented by 40mm and 20 mm AA guns. The South Dakota was nicknamed the "USS Porcupine" because John McFaul put so many 20 mm guns on even HE forgot how many. And only by eyeballing spots they would fit with no plans. (John McFaul was a Planner and Estimator at the Long Beach Naval Shipyard and was excited to work on New Jersey in 1968. In WW II, he was a shipfitter at the New York [Brooklyn] Naval Shipyard and assigned the task of finding "any and ALL" spots a 20 mm gun would fit on South Dakota and weld a foundation down for it.)

**gunnut** · 20 Dec 06, 06:18

Originally Posted by RustyBattleship

Secondly, the comment about the entire fleet pounding her supports my opinion that Japanese strategy had turned to mass suicide rather than a more survivor type attitude. For example, over 5,000 airplanes AND pilots had been prepped for a mass suicide attack on the US Fleet. Tenns of Thousands of US servicemen would have died and many critical ships sunk or heavily damaged with a loss of "only" 5,000 pilots.

I understand what the Japanese wanted to do by grounding Yamato. They didn't expect to come out alive. All I was saying is if that had happened, our battleships would have raced to the scene trying to pound her to dust, only to be beaten to the punch by hundreds of carrier planes. Either way, Yamato would be destroyed while accomplishing very little toward the Japanese war effort. The only difference might be that we can see her wreck today near Okinawa rather than need to search the bottom of the ocean for it.

**temujin77** · 20 Dec 06, 14:12

Originally Posted by gunnut

I understand what the Japanese wanted to do by grounding Yamato. They didn't expect to come out alive.

Yeah, the high command had given the sailors the impression that they should not come back alive, that's for sure, but I hope you did not conclude that by believing the common misconception that they didn't even have enough fuel to return. Quote WW2DB: "Although this was meant to be a one-way cruise, contrary to popular belief the ships actually had enough fuel to make a return trip. This fact, however, was concealed from the officers and sailors, therefore the theory of the ships having only enough fuel for a single trip is commonly accepted." More info here:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=15

**Dreadnought** · 20 Dec 06, 14:57

Originally Posted by cape_royds

I thought about the strategic significance of the class, rather than tactical effectiveness.

By that criterion, I chose the Tirpitz as the most successful dreadnought of WWII.

After all, one of the main purposes of a battleship is to be part of a "fleet-in-being."

Few battleships ever better represented an effective fleet-in-being than the Tirpitz.

How many enemy capital ships did the Tirpitz tie down full time during 1942-44? I think that the British never had fewer than five battleships and battlecruisers ready to meet a sortie by the Tirpitz.

That represents a pretty decent return-on-investment for the Germans, plus it served as a fine contribution on behalf of their allies in the Pacific and the Mediterranean.

I can't think of any capital ship in WWII that comes close in terms of the amount of enemy fighting power negated by its presence.

As far as I know the only USN battleship that was put on watch for the Tirpitz in the Atlantic was the USS Iowa. In that case she could neither out gun or out run.

**Dreadnought** · 20 Dec 06, 15:14

Originally Posted by cape_royds

Of course, in a duel the Bismarcks and KGV's were outclassed by the Iowas or Yamatos.

I was pointing out a different and important criterion--impact on the course of the war.

The Iowa class dreadnoughts didn't have much impact on the course of the war. Their presence didn't change Japanese deployments or intentions.

Likewise, I don't believe that the Yamato class ever really altered American war plans.

As for deciding which was better, it's hard to say as neither class ever fought any other battleships. Looking at the limited history of dreadnought battles, I find that protection is very important. So I would give the edge to the Yamatos.

The Iowas presence would have severly changed the Japanese outlook had Kurita been caught by Halsey's TF38. IMO the Japanese navy would have failed to exist for they could not possibly have withstood all those USN 16" guns at once and certainly couldnt out run them either had Halsey not raced after the decoy force. Halsey had way too much fire power with him for the Japanese to handle even with their heavies. Kurita lost his gumption after seeing the destroyers and escorts put up such a fight until the end and decided to turn tail. And if Halsey didnt get to them Lee should have IMO.

**Dreadnought** · 20 Dec 06, 15:22

Originally Posted by gunnut

Can you imagine what would have happened if the Yamato actually reached Okinawa and grounded herself to become a shore battery? That would have invited the entire battle line of the Pacific Fleet to open up on her, IF they can even get there before the airplanes. A moored (grounded) battleship unable to manuever is little more than a death trap for her crew and a minor nuisance to her enemies.

Agreed, her armor plating would have gotten a true test as her belly and magazines would have been exposed to guns that could have easily penetrated her lower magazines and powder storage. Making it that much easier to put rounds in her from point blank range from any naval guns that could penetrate her soft belly. The Yamaoto out of water would be a target that would be forgive my english "un missable". Once a magazine hit especially exposed above water and open on the side and its fireworks galore no doubt. Would have made for one hell of a "battle damage" pic though.

**temujin77** · 20 Dec 06, 15:33

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Would have made for one hell of a "battle damage" pic though.

What, this is not spectacular enough for you?

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=1956

Looks like a mini-atomic bomb...

**Dreadnought** · 20 Dec 06, 15:46

Originally Posted by temujin77

What, this is not spectacular enough for you?

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=1956

Looks like a mini-atomic bomb...

That is a surface shot of her upper hull going bye bye. Now imagine the entire ship being at least half way out of the water (beached) and then exploding off. The explosion beneath the water in that photo would have been angled out to the side since it would have been exposed to daylight making it that much more cataclismic.

:

**temujin77** · 20 Dec 06, 15:52

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

That is a surface shot of her upper hull going bye bye. Now imagine the entire ship being at least half way out of the water (beached) and then exploding off. The explosion beneath the water in that photo would have been angled out to the side since it would have been exposed to daylight making it that much more cataclismic.

:

Ah, I get you. Yes, your scenario would definitely have been quite an explosion. Perhaps that would've been for the better had it happened that way, you know, knowing Yamato was going to go down anyways. Maybe seeing the ship named for their country being destroyed right on the beach of Okinawa would've made the Okinawa campaign end quicker?

**Dreadnought** · 20 Dec 06, 16:13

IMO I wonder if the IJN took into mind that having fuel and projectiles on board and being that much gross tonage in total would effect the hull as far as list when she was to be beached. Beaching at the wrong place could present such a list that it could in theory render her 18" guns completely useless as far as defending herself. Perhaps even training those huge turrets to the side could have as well caused her to "fall over" given their weight. The British learned this "balance" by accident when one of their battleships fell over while in a floating drydock and severly damaged the ship. IMO Target the magazines and fuel bunker storage on that exposed belly and let it rip.

If that were to happen it would have looked kinnda like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo on a bad day.

**gunnut** · 20 Dec 06, 21:01

Originally Posted by temujin77

Yeah, the high command had given the sailors the impression that they should not come back alive, that's for sure, but I hope you did not conclude that by believing the common misconception that they didn't even have enough fuel to return. Quote WW2DB: "Although this was meant to be a one-way cruise, contrary to popular belief the ships actually had enough fuel to make a return trip. This fact, however, was concealed from the officers and sailors, therefore the theory of the ships having only enough fuel for a single trip is commonly accepted." More info here:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=15

I read that somewhere.

The Japanese high command wanted her journey to be the ultimate kamikaze mission. The commander of the mission had more sense and ordered the ships to be fueled enough for a return journey. That was done in secret.

I also read that the mission came about because in a briefing with the emperor, the army presented their plan to defend Okinawa to the death. To which the emperor asked the naval officers present at the meeting what they have planned for the defense of Okinawa. The officer (forgot his name) just made up the kamikaze plan on the spot in order not to be outdone by the army. They fixed the details later.

**cape_royds** · 20 Dec 06, 23:22

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

As far as I know the only USN battleship that was put on watch for the Tirpitz in the Atlantic was the USS Iowa.

You write that only one "USN battleship" was offset by the Tirpitz.

I wasn't even thinking of any American ships, I was thinking of the British capital ships and carriers (I think two of the Illustrious class) that had to be kept in northern European waters rather being sent to places where they could have more value in 1942, like in the Mediterranean or in South-East Asia.

Any American warships tied down by the Tirpitz would just be a bonus.

So in the course of the war as a whole, Tirpitz had more strategic impact than any other battleship.

**~~Shipwreck~~** · 21 Dec 06, 00:55

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

As far as I know the only USN battleship that was put on watch for the Tirpitz in the Atlantic was the USS Iowa.

Just to name those 3 :

* USS Washington (BB-56) served with the British Home Fleet from March till July of 1942.

* USS South Dakota (BB-57) served with the British Home Fleet during June and July of 1943.

* USS Alabama (BB-60) served with the British Home Fleet from March through July of 1943.

**Dreadnought** · 21 Dec 06, 14:52

Didnt know about the others on watch besides Iowa. Thanks.

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