Thread: Carrier killers (an article from JED online)

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Midcourse guidance updates massively increase the chances of a hit for any OTH AShM.

TASM didn't 'need' midcourse updates either....unless you actually wanted to hit what you were shooting at.

Well, it's all accounted for.

In a place of Janes guys I would also post range of P-700 as 400+ miles

Hitting any target at 400 miles in actual combat conditions against an ENCOM'd fleet is a hell of a lot harder to accomplish in real life than it is to babble about on the internet.

Every sailor i've ever talked too has echoed that sentiment.

Originally Posted by lurker

Last missiles that had semi-active guidance were AS-3's which were decomissioned like in 70's.

Everything else after that is mostly uses innertial guidance with terminal active radar guidance (Sometimes it's active/passive, sometimes + IR; - but all of them are authonomous).

Don't forget, even a missile that came after the AS-3 - the AS-4 - was upgraded to enable mid-course updates.

Originally Posted by lurker

In a place of Janes guys I would also post range of P-700 as 400+ miles

And it's likely that the Granit also has the capability for mid-course updates.

I guess it's considered a "nice to have".

Originally Posted by TopHatter

And it's likely that the Granit also has the capability for mid-course updates.
I guess it's considered a "nice to have".

As opposing to that they always say that "Granit" is completly fire-and-forget system.

Originally Posted by lurker

As opposing to that they always say that "Granit" is completly fire-and-forget system.

"They" can say whatever they want....at least until it's specs are revealed by the Russians, or one is delivered by UPS to various "interested parties"

Originally Posted by TopHatter

"They" can say whatever they want....at least until it's specs are revealed by the Russians, or one is delivered by UPS to various "interested parties"

They means "in the books". Specs are partially open.

Tophatter do you not yet know that all things Russian are the best and better yet undefeatable.

Their miitary does not have to train, fly or go to sea to achieve their superiority. They dont even need funding. All they have to do is talk and victory is instantly assured.

I quake in my boots at the thought of my nation, the U.S.A., confronting the omnipotent, all-powerful Russian military machine.

Any failures are the result of U.S. conspiracies, sabotage and outright attacks(think Kursk) on the Motherland. And therefore the Russians have no weaknesses.

The demise of the USSR actually never happened its only a cute fairytale. A bedtime story for American children so as to be able to sooth their tortured souls and allow them a measure of peaceful sleep..

Here is the arrogance and ignorance always displayed by Russians. :

"The Secret of the Kursk’s Weapons
Dmitry Safronov


The Kursk submarine still has 22 “Granit” – SSN19 (NATO classification – “Shipwreck”) secret, supersonic long-range cruise missiles for strikes against surface forces on board.

It is precisely for this reason that Russian naval ships are on round-the-clock patrol duty in the area of the stricken Kursk. The coordinates for the center of patrol area are 37 degrees 35 minutes E. longitude, 69 degrees 40 minutes N. latitude. The Kursk lies at this spot at a depth of about 100 meters.

Strana.Ru has learned from Navy Central Command that there was a change of patrol ships at the site of the accident a few days ago. The heavy cruiser Pyotr Velikiy (Peter the Great) has replaced the large anti-submarine ship Admiral Kharlamov.



The Mashinostroyeniye Company built the submarine’s main weapon – the “Shipwreck” long-range, supersonic missile. The missile is considered a top-secret weapon.

Naval ships of the “Antei” class (project 949A) appeared back in the times of the Soviet Navy, Mashinostroyeniye General Director Gerbert Yefremov explained to our correspondent. Such ships were designed to counterbalance American aircraft carrier forces and all groups of striking ships at sea.

The idea of a so-called “asymmetrical” response materialized at the beginning of the 1980s. Essentially, the idea was based on creating a powerful group of nuclear-powered strike submarines armed with long-range supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles. The Granit missile was built at the end of the 1970s and beginning of the 1980s. The project was carried out by the Reutovo branch of Mashinostroyeniye under Academician Vladimir Chelomeyev.

The “Shipwreck” can be fired both from surface vessels and submarines. It has a range of over 500 kilometers. Its firing weight is 7 tons and it has a length of 10 meters. Its velocity is 2.5 mach (2,800 km/hr). The Granit is capable of carrying different types of warheads.

However, it is not only the excellent flight characteristics of the missile and the homing device's countermeasures that enable the “Shipwreck” to preserve its unique combat capabilities, Yefremov points out.

The missile’s chief merit is its unique guidance system. It is based on “artificially intelligent” electronic systems that enable the missile to strike a single vessel, according to the “one ship – one missile” principle. The missile itself selects and classifies the targets by their “importance.” It chooses the tactic of attack and plans how it is to be carried out. The missile’s onboard computer is loaded with data on modern classes of ships to exclude errors in choosing its maneuvers to hit the selected target.

The missile’s computer also holds purely tactical data, for instance, on the type of ship formation. This data enables it to identify what lies ahead – a convoy, an aircraft group or a landing assault force – and to attack the main targets. The onboard computer also holds data for countering the enemy’s radio jamming signals, as well as tactical means for escaping air fire.

After the missiles are launched in a volley, the designers explain, they decide by themselves which one will attack which target, and what kind of maneuvers must be carried out in accordance with mathematical algorithms in the behavior program.

The missile also has capabilities for outwitting attacking missile-interceptors. After the main target in the group of ships is knocked out, the remaining missiles attack other ships in the formation, excluding the possibility of one and the same target being hit by two missiles.

Last year (1999), the Kursk was on a patrol mission in the Mediterranean. And as the story was told at Russia's chief naval headquarters, the US 6th Fleet Command was compelled to dispatch everything it could to track down the Kursk, but they came up with nothing.

Finally, a huge circle 500 km. in diameter was drawn on the maps and US naval ships were strictly forbidden to enter this circle. By its presence alone, the Kursk paralyzed the whole US fleet, and compelled it to think about its security.

"There is every reason to suppose that the US Navy will not pass up a chance to get its hands on any information about our missile for creating a defense system against it,” Yefremov points out. “And here, there is no need to nurse any illusions about various international treaties, or laws of ethics.”

But even if such a system appears, Granit will still remain a most powerful weapon against any well-defended adversary. Even if a missile interceptor hits, Granit will be able to retain its initial velocity because of its huge mass and speed. As a result, it can reach its target. The impact of such a strike will be such that even without its warhead, the missile will be able to snap a destroyer-class vessel in half.

Today, Mashinostroyeniye is working on a program to support Granit’s high combat efficiency throughout its entire service life. This concerns both its flight characteristics and its “intellectual” capabilities. All this work does not require large investments, and this means that the Russian Navy will still have decisive “arguments” in any sea battle.

The technical capabilities that have already been put into Granit form the basis for the concept of building a new type of anti-ship missile, the “Yakhont.”"


Yes it is now time for the US not only to disband their navy but as a nation to concede total,unmitigated defeat and submit to the unconditional surrender demands of the Worlds(My mistake: The Universes) Greatest Power the almighty Russian Empire.


LOL Will you people never give up with your nonsensical, unreal outlooks?

LOL, when will you grow up?

Where did I said that "that all things Russian are the best and better yet undefeatable."?

There is a plenty of stupid people from any country. Does not take much to find people who thinks "that all things American is best and better and undefeatable and shoots laser beams from their a**es" right on this board.

Lurker when your screwed up country can dispose of its own nuclear submarines without the help of the entire free world you can insult me with phrases such as:

"LOL, when will you grow up?"

Until then you should keep your big,fat mouth shut.

But I doubt if you have the either the humility or the guts for such a course of action.

If you have a problem with "stupid" people take it up with them.

My problem is you a and your repeated statements and implications that all things Russian work as advertised and no U.S. products do..

To say you havent done this(and repeatedly I might add) is a total lie.

Your total inability to fess up to your nonsensical assertions shows a total lack of character.

But then what else would I expect from someone who has none..

Yawn, you boring the hell out of me.

Originally Posted by lurker

They means "in the books". Specs are partially open.

Great. Let me know when they're opened up all the way.

Originally Posted by lurker

There is a plenty of stupid people from any country. Does not take much to find people who thinks "that all things American is best and better and undefeatable and shoots laser beams from their a**es" right on this board.

Actually, my whole jumping into this thread was based on this little uninformed statement made by yourself:

Originally Posted by lurker

p.s. Harpoon?? Whacking a submarine? Providing guidance??? ... nice.

OK, here's the deal: I don't expect you to know the origins of the Harpoon program. But when expressing disbelief, it helps if you avoid the sarcasm and derisively dismissive attitude, at least until you've got all the facts.

Try this out instead:

I hadn't read anything about Harpoon being intended for an anti-submarine mission. I'm also a bit confused about the whole "providing guidance" part.

Heck, for that matter, you COULD have done a BARE minimum of research on the subject before shooting your mouth off.

I'll be the first to admit that when I shoot my mouth off, there is usually someone who'll be there to shut it for me with facts that I hadn't been aware of. Awfully embarrassing for me, I can assure you.

Furthermore, you're very quick to point out when Americans are bashing Soviet/Russian gear. But you seem to have no problem doing it yourself.

Ever think of responding with a quiet, reasoned tone in your post, sticking to the facts and leaving the nationalism at home?

For that matter, I thought you lived in the United States yourself...?

"Yawn, you boring the hell out of me."

Yes Im well aware that facts and reality bore you.

Bores alot of other American enemies too.

In fact our whole plan is to bore you and your kind to death. LOL

Been doing it for a couple of centuries now and dont plan to stop.

Its well known that only arrogant, ignorant, no account people of low character succumb to boredom.

I guess you just wrote your epitaph.


My new motto:


"America: Winning the war by boring to death one enemy at a time"

LOL

And here all this time I thought that this new century would bring a new serious challenge by our enemies to the American Way of Life.

But I see "boredom" is still the weapon that works the best. What could be easier? Some things never change. LOL

Originally Posted by rickusn

Tophatter do you not yet know that all things Russian are the best and better yet undefeatable.

Their miitary does not have to train, fly or go to sea to achieve their superiority. They dont even need funding. All they have to do is talk and victory is instantly assured.

LOL, that's friggin' funny.

Originally Posted by TopHatter

Heck, for that matter, you COULD have done a BARE minimum of research on the subject before shooting your mouth off.

I'll be the first to admit that when I shoot my mouth off, there is usually someone who'll be there to shut it for me with facts that I hadn't been aware of. Awfully embarrassing for me, I can assure you.

I was just stumbled a little bit, because there were very little amount of subs in the USSR navy that were required to be surfaced for their function. Like early radar screen subs, ot later long range retranslators. But all of those were custom designs, not a big series.

I didn't know that we were talking about 60's. And in that time there was a big line of subs exacly fitting that profile - "folding beds" - Echo's. They needed a fairly long time for a surface launch.

Furthermore, you're very quick to point out when Americans are bashing Soviet/Russian gear. But you seem to have no problem doing it yourself.

Have you seen me bashing US aircraft? I have enormous respect for US Airforce, and just see a difference in concept going down to every piece of equipment. I know about real deficiencies in Russian equipment, just not want to talk about them (But I have fun when you guy are trying to add some fictional stuff to it).
For example take Harpoon. What makes it great? Flexibility. The thing that it's very mobile. You can launch almost from any platform ranging from a helicopter to a big ship.
You can't do the same with Shipwreck. You cannot reload it at sea. You cannot put it on a plane. ... And the biggest problem with it, thats the initial tagreting infrastructure is broken. The only thing that left there is passive sats, and airplanes. ... That, and not a fictional midcourse correction is a biggest problem.

Ever think of responding with a quiet, reasoned tone in your post, sticking to the facts and leaving the nationalism at home?

I left it at home long time ago. The one and only oath that I made was given to the country that not exists anymore.

For that matter, I thought you lived in the United States yourself...?

Yes, there too.