Thread: LCS christened

Bloody hell Galhran! I suppose the old adage, be careful what you wish for come to mind.. as long as you can explain to my wife what I'm going to be doing on the net all weekend...

But major thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

Hmm, well IMHO, it's more effective to shoot the archer than the arrow.

It's true, but it's high time we figure out how to hit incoming torpedoes with a high degree of certainty.

We manage to do that, and submarines begin to look like very shaky investments for our enemies, from their perspective.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

It's true, but it's high time we figure out how to hit incoming torpedoes with a high degree of certainty.

We manage to do that, and submarines begin to look like very shaky investments for our enemies, from their perspective.

Hm. We have pretty good anti-missile systems, but that doesn't stop people from using SSMs. I have a feeling countermeasures will lead to counter-countermeasures. Of course, some protection is better than no protection. Although from what I remember reading on this board awhile back, there's a lot of serious technical obstacles. I seem to remember highsea saying targeting is a pretty sticky problem.

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

Hmm, 10 hours seems awful small. If the LCS has to drop its USVs 2-3 hours away from their patrol area just to get enough standoff from likely SSK threats, the USVs aren't going to have much time on station.

The ASW module isn't only 2 USVs though, there will also be 2 RMVs as well, the Sea Talon is the Program of Record.

When measured by full range of options, from Helicopters, UAVs, UUVs, and USVs, not to mention fixed equipment on the LCS itself and interchangable systems on offboard platforms, you see why I have a lot of confidence in the LCS concept itself.

A particular limitation in block 0 assets, like endurance for a USV less than 4 years old, doesn't concern me too much. It is a safe bet those type of problems will be resolved in the near future, because honestly I think the technology already exists it is just a matter of incorporating it for Naval operations.

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

Hm. We have pretty good anti-missile systems, but that doesn't stop people from using SSMs. I have a feeling countermeasures will lead to counter-countermeasures. Of course, some protection is better than no protection. Although from what I remember reading on this board awhile back, there's a lot of serious technical obstacles. I seem to remember highsea saying targeting is a pretty sticky problem.

Torpedos are quite slow things. Should be much easier to hit than a supersonic AShM with today's modern technology.

Some of the lightweight ASW torpedos do have an anti-torpedo mode, but i know very little about it, or if it even works at all. I've just seen Stuart Slade and the other squids talk about it at Davids board on occasion when i used to post there.

Here's the thread I was thinking of.
http://worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=13526
I think I saw some more discussion somewhere else in the Naval forum, but I don't know where. As for the slowness, yes that would make it easier. On the other hand, what think I read was that targeting is the issue. I think it's very difficult to make a sonar system as precise as our fire control radars. But who knows? They are working on it; I'm sure they'll find a way eventually.

Just to add something, from all the info that Galrahn provided, that SUW module includes a 30mm gun pod. The same gun pod, firing super-cavitating rounds, is also mentioned as a mine clearing device.

It's not a 100% clear from my reading whether this cannon is airborne or ship based (either the LCS or a USV). However, if it can destroy an underwater mine, then it might not be a million miles away from the day that it could also destroy a torp.

I'm much happier with the whole LCS concept (as opposed to the current ships).

If it is a candidate to replace the Type 22/23s in the RN, I would still like it to be 30 -50 meters longer, and carry at least 16 VLS cells as well. Even if is it not just AAMs in the cells, the cells themselves give it so much more flexibility... in RN service it won't have the luxury of large numbers of Burkes to give air cover.

Just as an addition to this - wouldnt a bigger (8-9000 ton) destroyer be able to operate much the same systems, but on a far larger scale? I know its not really a consideration for the USN at the moment but for naval warfare in general. I was thinking of a mod Type 45 able to operate 4-6 USVs (for eg). On a larger hull, you could make it more organically multi-role, longer range and independent and still have the advantages of the distributed sensor net for ASW etc.

Replacing the Type 22s? That's interesting. It would be a reversal of the trend of replacement ships growing larger. The Broadswords are well into the 4000 ton range, aren't they? Seems like you would have to modify the LCS extensively for it to be effective as a major blue water combatant. Of course, 50 m is a pretty significant increase in size, would allow for a lot of changes. Might change seakeeping qualities a lot, though. Seems like you could make it into OHP replacement, but the Type 22s are significantly more capable than the Perry's, aren't they?

On the USVs and sensor net issue, I'm sure there are plans to include more USV capabilities of this sort on larger ships, but I think there would still be a place for LCS. It can act as a cheap, expendable ship that expands your sensor capabilities enormously. Kinda like a picket ship, only better. Also, the LCS is useful because it's a relatively cheap platform for trying out these new systems and ideas; if the whole distributed sensors with USVs falls flat for some reason, you haven't spent zillions modifying major combatants for nothing.

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

Replacing the Type 22s? That's interesting. It would be a reversal of the trend of replacement ships growing larger. The Broadswords are well into the 4000 ton range, aren't they? Seems like you would have to modify the LCS extensively for it to be effective as a major blue water combatant. Of course, 50 m is a pretty significant increase in size, would allow for a lot of changes. Might change seakeeping qualities a lot, though. Seems like you could make it into OHP replacement, but the Type 22s are significantly more capable than the Perry's, aren't they?

Of the Type 22's - only 4 are left (Batch 3 "C" class). These are actually larger and have more C&C capability than the Type 23.

Type 23 is circa 3500 tonnes standard/4500 full, and not that much longer than the LCS. It was an utterly superb ASW ship - but it was a deep water SSN hunter (with later mods that rounded out its capabilities). The RN can't really afford such a specialised ship which is why they certainly looked at the LCS.
Adding a bit of extra length (EDIT I was think feet rather than meters lol).was purely my idea, and obviously would need redesign and probably a speed reduction to carry it forward.
I do think the LCS concept has a lot of merit for the UK - especially if we can buy it "off-the-shelf" from you guys after you have worked out all the bugs and spent the money on development

The other option would be to buy it more or less as it is, and combine it with a larger destroyer variant.

Personally, a stretched LCS makes more sense to me for the RN, combined with some extra, possibily stretched Type 45's.

On the USVs and sensor net issue, I'm sure there are plans to include more USV capabilities of this sort on larger ships, but I think there would still be a place for LCS. It can act as a cheap, expendable ship that expands your sensor capabilities enormously. Kinda like a picket ship, only better. Also, the LCS is useful because it's a relatively cheap platform for trying out these new systems and ideas; if the whole distributed sensors with USVs falls flat for some reason, you haven't spent zillions modifying major combatants for nothing.

Yep, I'd agree on that. Perhaps the RN will watch and see if it works first...

Ah. Had completely forgotten about the Duke class. Definitely closer to the LCS than the Type 22s. Naval Technology gives the full load displacement of the General Dynamics design at about 2600 tons, which is pretty small compared to the Type 23's 4500 tons. But then, I'm all for smaller ships if they can do the job.