Proud Indian

Hey guys

Watz up wid navy they are prefering Rafale M (Naval variant) instead Mig29 K's
Even though the order has been set for Mig 29K's Indian Navy wants to get their hands on Rafale M

Any ideas guys?
Rafale M or Mig29K's

Thanx Guys

__________________
Hindustan Meri Ruh Hai ! - Akbar

Sarhad E Hindustan aur Mazhab E Islam meree dil ke kareeb hai - Karan (Thats me guys)

Adux

can u back ur claims with links..rafael needs a catobar carrier while INS VIK is a stobar, so u r wrong

Josh

Proud Indian

Yeh ! mate Theres the link

kool

http://www.navlog.org/indian_rafales.html

Su-47MKI

Thats from 2003. A lot of things have changed. They decided to purchase around 30 MiG-29ks for the carrier instead. Eitherway, the MiG-29ks are good enough for now. The Rafale or JSF may be necessary for carriers in the future though. I think India is constructing 3 ADS carriers, getting the refitted Vikramaditya by 2007, and i have heard that it may purchase the HMS Invincible, so there is a lot of room for new aircraft procurements.

brownboi4eva

Sources from the naval command have said that they want 5 FULLY operational Carriers by the year 2020 - First Ads, Vikramaditya and 3 more.....i have my sources in the navy, please dont ask who

__________________
What doesnt kill me, Just makes me stronger :cool:

rickusn

Ive heard four before but not five. But if they have three operational by then it will still be quite a feat.

BTW Who?



Just kidding. LOL

brownboi4eva

LOL sorry i cant tell rick ....i know you are the Navy guy around here so i really respect your opinion. IMHO i am more than sure they will have 3 by 2015- 1st ADS, Vikramaditya and either Refit the current one [really pushing the envelope] or HMS invincible...having 5 AC's will really make India the naval authority in the Indian Ocean dont you think....also Rick can you please gimme your opinion on the Indian frigates???

by the way, any news on the nuclear submarine plan???

rickusn

If they get the Invincible( I hadnt considered that possibility when I posted-one reason is that the Indian Navy so far has passed on the offer of ex-UK SHARS and another is the possibility of picking up ex-USN LHA's) and can keep the Vikramaditya in service through 2020 plus get three ADS or eqiv. built by 2020 then certainly five total is possible but IMHO not likely.

On Surface Combatants:

With 3 Project 15A(Bangalore class-Dehli derivative), 3 Project 15(Dehli class), 5 Rajput(Russian-Kashin class), 3 + ? Project 17 class(Shivalik class-Talwar derivative) and 3 Talwar class (Russian-design based on the Krivak class) they will have 12 relatively modern ships with a viable AAW capability and 5 older ships(Rajput class) of dubious value in the near term.

Im not really keen on either the Top Plate radar or the single armed- launchers which predominate the 12 newer ships(VLS of a sort for the Shtil (SAN-7) system missles only in the new Project 15A class).

With the Brahmos missle the should have an excellent Anti-ship and land-attack weapon in the Project 15A, Shivalik and Talwar classes. Although for land-attack the missle load-outs are small. Plus one rajput class has been retrofitted with four of them. Im not sure of the plans for the Dehli class retro-fit if any.

ASW is credible for all these ships.

The six Project 16/16A class frigates are fine ships also. In particular the more modern and heavily armed 16A combatants.

The four remaining Leanders are fine for training and as limited ASW escorts.

The mix of Western and Russian-designed systems must create integration challenges.

The next step is a ship more comparable to the newest Western type AAW-multi-purpose destroyer. The Top Plate radar and missles now used are limited compared to Western AAW standards.

The Indians need to get better at shipbuilding especially the protracted building times.

But they are certainly a force to be reckoned with. The US, France and Russia all exercise regularly with the Indian Navy.

rickusn

Nuclear-poweres submarines is quite secretive and rumor filled. Talks of leasing Russian platforms is on again/off again.

Here is a brief synopsis from www.bharat-rakshak.com:

"The hull design is ready and the displacement is estimated to be at 6000 tons. The 190 MW miniature nuclear propulsion system has been tested ashore, possibly at the Kalapakkam atomic research centre. Given the degree of Russian technical assistance, the submarine could resemble the Severodvinsk Class and/or the Akula Class. Reportedly, the submarine will have VLS tubes capable of firing multiple weapons. Fabrication has already commenced at Vizag, but there are no indications as to when the vessel will be laid down or launched. The plan is for a class of five submarines fitted with long-range, nuclear-tipped missiles. A nuclear-capable missile (dubbed 'Sagarika' by the press) is reportedly under development at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) at Bangalore, in southern India."

One of these five is rumored to be a possible SSBN.

rickusn

Nuclear-sub project gathers steam
RAJAT PANDIT

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, JULY 20, 2005 10:31:22 PM ]


NEW DELHI: By the end of this decade, India should have a fully-operational nuclear submarine of its own. The Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to build a nuclear-powered, guided-missile attack submarine is now on track after years of technical glitches and design problems.

"The first functional ATV should be ready for trials by 2007-08. The technical problems, including fitting a miniaturised pressurised water reactor (PWR) and its containment vessel in the submarine’s hull, have more or less been sorted out,"says a top source.

Sources add that the two heavily-guarded ATV project complexes at Vishakapatnam naval dockyard, where the basic submarine structure is being fabricated, and Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research at Kalpakkam, where the PWRs are being tested, are witnessing a flurry of activity these days.

The project has been shrouded in secrecy ever since it was formally launched in 1983, with successive governments either denying its very existence or being deliberately vague about it.

Interestingly, one of the grounds for sacking Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat as the Navy chief in December 1998 was his expression of concern, in public, for the slow progress of the ATV project.

Apart from the Navy, which operated a leased Russian nuclear submarine ‘INS Chakra’ from 1988 to 1991, a whole host of agencies ranging from Bhabha Atomic Research Centre to the Defence Research and Development Organisation are involved in the hush-hush project.

Russia, too, is providing technical help to the project in the form of PWRs and vessel designs.

Compared to conventional submarines, nuclear-propelled submarines can operate at higher speeds for virtually unlimited ranges, without surfacing to recharge batteries, apart from carrying a larger arsenal of weapons.

Faced with an ageing fleet of 16 conventional diesel-electric submarines, coupled with the government decision to now renegotiate the French Scorpene project due to cost-escalation, a successful ATV project can bring good cheer to the Navy.

India, of course, eventually plans to arm nuclear-powered submarines with nuclear-tipped missiles since they provide the most effective and secure platform for a second-strike capability.

The Navy is also keen to lease another nuclear submarine from Russia as soon as possible to regain the skills learned while operating 'INS Chakra', before it inducts the ATV.

Most of the personnel trained on 'INS Chakra', a "Charlie-I"or "Skat"class guided missile submarine, which was also based at the Vishakapatnam naval dockyard, have since retired.



Also some say it will be in service by 2010 with ten in service by 2015!!!!!!!!!

brownboi4eva

SO rick with the IN aqquiring 5 of these by the year 2015 along with say 3 carriers do you think they are a dangerous navy in Tier 2...obviously USN being Tier 1

Unipidity

From a strategic PoV, who is the SSGN supposed to be used against? China? I dont really see the point of a SSGN against Pakistan. And is it not true that the weapons to defeat a 1st-gen SSN are going to be a lot cheaper than that project?

JBodnar39

I personally have been quite impressed with India's military buildup. India is striving to become a world power. Its airfroce is already quite impressive, and as it continues to build SU-30's, replaces the Mig-21's with a new fighter en-masse, and aquires more tankers, and AEW platfroms it will be a dominant force. It's ships sport effective SSM's (SS-N-25, SSN-27, and Brahmos when it comes out). The air defenses on their ships lack a long range capability like SM-2/SA-N-6/ASTER-30, but they are armed pretty good for close in defense. As an example the Delhis have SAN/12 (effective butg with a range of less than 20 miles) and Baraks are being fitted on all of the ships as well. Against a saturation misssel atack a single Delhi has 44 SAN12's than are fired from two single launchers and 32 VLS Barak. The SAN12 system has 6 illuminators and the two EL/M-2221 for the Baraks can each target two different attackers; that would give a Delhi the capability of simultaneously engaging 10 incoming missles - not bad at all.

Su-47MKI

What i don't understand is why India doesn't purchase even more Su-30MKIs and increase production of them. They are much cheaper than F-16s(the MKIs cost less than 30million when they are manufactured in India) and they are better than anything else. A force of 400 Su-30MKIs would be more than enough to effectively counter all threats. They can also be used for naval roles and they are a platform for the BrahMos cruise missile.

rickusn

Obviously they are already dangerous to ANY navy coming into their backyard.

Certainly by 2015 they could be a Tier 2. However part of my criteria for Tier 2 is that they actually have to be able to deploy world-wide on a consistent basis. Means to me that Replenishment ship #s have to be increased and a longer-range SAM system with better radars/combat systems are needed.

The USSR mostly makes it on its large nuclear-powered submarine force nowadays. Their Udaloy class destroyers are quite credible along with a handful of the Sovremmenny class .

France has a broad range of capabilities but limited #s in all capabilities.

The UK has a history of operating world-wide with a superb Replenishment capability. But they desperately need the Daring class DDG's, Astute class SSN's and CVF carrier programs to reach fruition to maintain a credible combat capability world-wide.

But as for controlling the Indian Ocean the Indian navy is almost there and that may actually be more important than world-wide ops.

I broke nations into Tiers not so much to rank as to facilitate a comparison of navies with a similar force structure in particular #s wise, then carriers, then platform capability wise, then regional/ world-wide ops wise and then of course people wise. Also indigenous shipbuilding capabilities plus weapon/sensor manufacturing and/or integration are also important considerations. Then I try to synthesise the whole into a reasonable determination of where a particular navy fits.

Navies are hard to pigeon-hole but some means is necessary to differentiate into groups for easier analysis. But #s certainly count for alot.
.
Remember all navies are built with a certain purpose. How they address that purpose is quite important.

Looking at 50 plus navies as a whole can be a confusing task. Breaking them into groups makes it less daunting for me.

Hope that was helpful.