Rani Lakshmibai

American Navy 'Helped Venezuelan Coup'
by Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles

The United States had been considering a coup to overthrow the elected Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, since last June, a former US intelligence officer claimed yesterday.
It is also alleged that the US navy aided the abortive coup which took place in Venezuela on April 11 with intelligence from its vessels in the Caribbean. Evidence is also emerging of US financial backing for key participants in the coup.

Both sides in Venezuela have blamed the other for the violence surrounding the coup.

Wayne Madsen, a former intelligence officer with the US navy, told the Guardian yesterday that American military attaches had been in touch with members of the Venezuelan military to examine the possibility of a coup.

"I first heard of Lieutenant Colonel James Rogers [the assistant military attaché now based at the US embassy in Caracas] going down there last June to set the ground," Mr Madsen, an intelligence analyst, said yesterday. "Some of our counter-narcotics agents were also involved."

He said that the navy was in the area for operations unconnected to the coup, but that he understood they had assisted with signals intelligence as the coup was played out.

Mr Madsen also said that the navy helped with communications jamming support to the Venezuelan military, focusing on communications to and from the diplomatic missions in Caracas belonging to Cuba, Libya, Iran and Iraq - the four countries which had expressed support for Mr Chavez.

Navy vessels on a training exercise in the area were supposedly put on stand-by in case evacuation of US citizens in Venezuela was required.

In Caracas, a congressman has accused the US ambassador to Venezuela, Charles Shapiro, and two US embassy military attaches of involvement in the coup.

Roger Rondon claimed that the military officers, whom he named as (James) Rogers and (Ronald) MacCammon, had been at the Fuerte Tiuna military headquarters with the coup leaders during the night of April 11-12.

And referring to Mr Shapiro, Mr Rondon said: "We saw him leaving Miraflores palace, all smiles and embraces, with the dictator Pedro Carmona Estanga [who was installed by the military for a day] ... [His] satisfaction was obvious. Shapiro's participation in the coup d'état in Venezuela is evident."

The US embassy dismissed the allegations as "ridiculous". Mr Shapiro admitted meeting Mr Carmona the day after the coup, but said he urged him to restore the national assembly, which had been dissolved.

Mr Carmona told the Guardian that no such advice was given, although he agreed that a meeting took place. (My own words here: So America happened to have diplomats all ready to meet the coup leaders on the day of the coup? How nice. And the Navy and CIA helping out too. Even better.)

A US embassy spokesman said there were no US military personnel from the embassy at Fuerte Tiuna during the crucial periods from April 11 to 13, al though two members of the embassy's defense attaché's office, one of them Lt Col Rogers, drove around the base on the afternoon of April 11 to check reports that it was closed.

Mr Rondon has also claimed that two foreign gunmen, one American and the other Salvadorean, were detained by security police during the anti-Chavez protest on April 11 in which around 19 people were killed, many by unidentified snipers firing from rooftops.

"They haven't appeared anywhere. We presume these two gentlemen were given some kind of safe-conduct and could have left the country," he said.

The members of the military who coordinated the coup have claimed that they did so because they feared that Mr Chavez was intending to attack the civilian protesters who opposed him.

Mr Chavez's opponents claim pro-Chavez gunmen shot protesters while his supporters say the shots were fired by agents provocateurs .

In the past year, the United States has channeled hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants to US and Venezuelan groups opposed to Mr Chavez, including the labor group whose protests sparked off the coup. The funds were provided by the National Endowment for Democracy, a nonprofit agency created and financed by the US Congress. (Me again: Other articles suggest millions of dollars given to these groups to promote 'democracy'. So America is giving military and financial aid to criminal warlords. And here I thought that America was such a good democratic country. And Chavez's only crime was not supporting America.)

The state department's human rights bureau is now examining whether one or more recipients of the money may have actively plotted against Mr Chavez.
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This is the USN's real business, supporting coups in other countries. And then America will be surprised if Venezuela carries out a 'terrorist' attack on it. Proclamation of how evil Venezuela is and all that will pronounced and the Marine Corps will land in Venezuela to 'free' it. Disaster relief partly for showing the rest of the world how nice and democratic America is.

Cut from another article, the interventions in South America alone:

The invasion and seizure of one half of Mexico in 1846; the seizure of Cuba and Puerto Rico in the Western hemisphere through the Spanish-American War; invasions of Mexico, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and Nicaragua in the early 20th Century; the Guatemala coup of 1954; assassination of Dominican dictator Trujillo in 1961; continuous assassination attempts, invasions, covert operations and a blockade against Cuba; coup in Brazil in 1964; coup in the then-British Guiana in 1964; invasion of the Dominican Republic in 1965; coup in Chile in 1973; arming of death squads in various Latin American countries; organizing and arming the terrorist Contras in their war with the Sandinista government in Nicaragua in the 1980s; invasion of Panama in 1989. And this is not the entire list.

Deny these if you want but they have been documented by history so nobody will believe you. The USN would have been involved in the majority of these cases.

TopHatter

Rani,
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you WRT the USN or US policy.
I have no illusions about what the United States does overseas.

__________________
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.
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Rani Lakshmibai

Good. And you are right about the fact that refugees would hardly scream bloody murder when a US Navy ship comes to save them. But that hardly means that they have to stand by and watch America repeatedly interfere in their affairs. Especially the South Americans, poor people.

P.S: Sorry if I sounded aggressive.

Franco Lolan

[quote=Rani Lakshmibai]American Navy 'Helped Venezuelan Coup'
by Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
QUOTE]

Do you know who Duncan Campbell is? Obviously, no. Please read about him.

US supported the coupe once it started, but it didn't coordinate or cause. Also, US will not force a coupe to get rid of Chavez now. Being a Venezuelan (no, I'm not of the elite chaste of society which some claim that are the only ones who oppose him), I can tell you that he is a threat to Latin America as a whole. His belligerent policies are threatening the BOP, his failed economic policies are berieving Venezuelans of a middle class, and his stagnation of PDVSA is lowering crude output by a 1/3 since last year.

Of course militaries are for projection of power. The IN and USN primary missions is not to help tsunami refugees. It is to counter enemies.
The US is a force for good in the world.

India and the US are on the same side.

Hawg166

I am so glad that you also recognize the fact that all the other peace loving nations like India, Pakistan, China, Russia, Germanyand the like make sure to tell the nations of the world that their military is for aggressive self aggrandizement and the like. Get a clue you choad ! Militaries exist for one reason and one reason only, to kill people and break stuff. If anyone cant figure that out without being told they are choads also.

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TopHatter

Like I said, I have no illusions about what the United States does overseas.
I think Rani misunderstood that.

Joseph

To tell first,I am not a navy man or not even remotely connected to navy in any way excpet that I participate in forums.

I don't like USN.Thats it.Everyone has the right to like or dislike as they like.
You may like it,so you are accusing me of jealousy.I am a MAN U fan in soccer.When I find a person who is not a fan,i might label him jealous of our achievemnt.Your sentiments are therefore only natural.i can understand that

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FrontierIndia Forums

We changed!!

Jay

Pardon my language...

Moan and b|tch, USN is here to stay, to smoke America's enemies outta of this world!! This military machine will not stop, becoz some one dislikes it!!

And dont confuse Americas defence forces with America's foreign policy. Politicians enact policies, and USN is just a tool for them to acheive it, actually the best such tool available in the world.

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A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

Samudra

Grrr. The Might of the American Military Machine can , and will , if it need be , take on any country in this world.It is there to further American intrests.

Therefore it is natural that one doesnt feel happy about it unlike Americans here.I should understand the Americans , and they me.

Honestly , i think one should focus his efforts on doing something to his country to make it equally great as America is today ,instead of moaning about it.However , that is not to say that one should not express , strongly if required, his views about America here.

I know Rani , Jay all feel the same way.
Infact most of my friends who love many things American , Wimmen primarily* , feel the same way.


* - Okay , they are quite crazy about all Wimmen.

Jay

TopHatter

Thats funny....I've always wanted to hook up with an Indian woman....

Rani Lakshmibai

Perhaps you are right, but I cannot verify your claims about being a Venezuelan because you are nothing more than a name on a forum and thus, your claim that you are someone who represents the Venezuelan non-upper classes. But it matter not.

And I am ignorant of Venezuelan affairs as a general rule. But I don't need to have political science degree to tell you that supporting a coup in a democratic country is in violation of international law and is just plain wrong. What would happen if, say China supported the assasination or a coup against the American president in any way, shape or form? Want to bet that America would be trying to 'free' the Chinese next? What about if Venezuela did it? But only by using their ships to jam signals though; with no Marines landing or ships firing? Would it matter? Of course not. They'd tell you that you were an enemy and then proceed to take you down.

So, basically the Americans can support coups in democratic countries but China can't. Nor India or Venezuela. Because they are not America. This discrepancy forms the basis and foundation of American foriegn policy: We can do it, but others can't. I believe it is commonly known as 'DOUBLE STANDARDS'.

For all I know, Hugo Chavez could be another Hitler in the making. But that still does not make it right for a foreign Navy to walk in and openly try to overthrow him. If Chavez is wrong, then the next elections will be an opportunity for the Venezuelans to tell him that through legal means called elections even if it is an imperfect system.

I do hope that things do get better for Venezuela, Franco. But one thing is for sure. That if America did succeed in overthrowing Chavez, they wouldn't exactly be considering the best interests of the Venezuelan people so much as how to put another puppet in power who will see to it that American interests gain priority while the country rots in corruption and violence.


No, I would have understood it the first time around - if I had read it. But since I was busy typing up a post, I didn't see it until after I posted mine :D. My apologies.


Oh, like Iraq and Vietnam I suppose. I might remind you the economic and military power is not enough to rule the world. In the end, America depends on the rest of the world.

But you are right about the USN being a tool of American politicians. But since the American peoples have repeatedly elected administrations into power that pursue hostile and exploitative policies, I must assume a majority of American people (including military personnel) want to exploit other countries and treat them only as a means to an end.


I think you are referring to "women", SamudraGupta :D. I like the fairer gender just as much as the next man but I don't believe in seeing them as objects, so I must refrain from this display of testorone .

And kindly inform me, what American products or goods, tangible or intangible, can the rest of the world not live with? Or do the Americans supply the world something that only they can make? I don't think so.

Franco Lolan

I'm Venezuelan. Please take my word.

"So, basically the Americans can support coups in democratic countries but China can't. Nor India or Venezuela. Because they are not America. This discrepancy forms the basis and foundation of American foriegn policy: We can do it, but others can't. I believe it is commonly known as 'DOUBLE STANDARDS'. "

Every country follows what you can label "double standards." Its a basis of statecraft as the world knows it.

Venezuela can barely be considered democratic.

"For all I know, Hugo Chavez could be another Hitler in the making. But that still does not make it right for a foreign Navy to walk in and openly try to overthrow him. If Chavez is wrong, then the next elections will be an opportunity for the Venezuelans to tell him that through legal means called elections even if it is an imperfect system. "

Chavez is not in favor of democracy and he has openly stated that. (2002, Baghdad)

"Imperfect" LOL. Did you observe the referendum election. It was a joke.

"I do hope that things do get better for Venezuela, Franco. But one thing is for sure. That if America did succeed in overthrowing Chavez, they wouldn't exactly be considering the best interests of the Venezuelan people so much as how to put another puppet in power who will see to it that American interests gain priority while the country rots in corruption and violence. "

Venezuela is in a poor position because Venezuelans have shot themselves in the foot over the last three decades. They accepted the corruption. This is only a reaction.
Yes, the Venezuelan people must take responsibilty, not the US only through intervention.


"But you are right about the USN being a tool of American politicians. But since the American peoples have repeatedly elected administrations into power that pursue hostile and exploitative policies, I must assume a majority of American people (including military personnel) want to exploit other countries and treat them only as a means to an end."

The US has benevolent ends. The US people have not allowed American troops to remain in Iraq because they like hostile administrations. The American people suffer when their troops die for the liberty of others. The US, despite entry reasons, has not remained in Iraq to "exploit them."

I can think of no other nation that has so selflessly commited economic assets and military lives towards the betterment of the world.

Can you?

Jay

India tried similar thing in Sri Lanka and Maldives. But its not exactly a coup, but India just tried to reinforce the ruling govts, which is very similar.

Ofcourse the world operates on double standards, check how much India pays for a barrel of oil and compare it with other western countries.

If you need the world to recognize you as a leader, you should act like one.

Like Iraq and Vietnam?? Its absurd to compare both the countries at a same stretch. Economic and military power is more than enought to be the un-disputed leader in the world. who said america wants to rule the world??
America depends on others, while the others depend on America even more. Take any nation and its largest trading partner would be America.

Hostile and exploitative policies ?? May be for you...but not for all. One cannot agree with the whole world to make policies that good for his country. So you may think that Saddam is the best thing that ever happened for Iraq, while I strongly disagree. And assumption is the mother of all sins, since you hate Iraq war, can I assume that you support Sadddam and his cowardly actions like gassing thousands of Iraqi Kurds??

Also IMO you are way out of topic.

indianguy4u

Enough of this fighting for liberty jokes man. US is not there fighting for iraqi people but for its own vested interests.


But what about US? Do u call gen musharaf of pakistan, mubarrak of egpyt as champions of democracy then.

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