rickusn

Mechanical defects plague sub
HMCS Victoria's problems caused safety concerns, DND documents show

Brad Badelt and Nicholas Read
CanWest News Service


May 12, 2005



CREDIT: Darren Stone, Times Colonist
Long-range patrol submarine HMCS Victoria passes the Trial Islands lighthouse during maintenance trials conducted last August.






Dozens of mechanical problems have been found on HMCS Victoria, the submarine based at CFB Esquimalt, and several were severe enough to cause safety concerns, Department of National Defence documents show.

An exhaust system malfunction "chased personnel from the engine room coughing and choking . . . and again set off fire alarms throughout the submarine before the engine room door was ever opened," according to a document from Aug. 14, 2004, obtained by the Vancouver Sun through Freedom of Information legislation.

It continued: "In consultation with submarine sea-training personnel this quantity of exhaust water leakage is significantly more than on any other Victoria-class submarine. It poses a clear danger to engine room watch keeping personnel."

HMCS Victoria is one of four submarines -- including the ill-fated HMCS Chicoutimi, which caught fire on its inaugural voyage from Scotland to Halifax last year -- the navy bought from Britain for nearly $900 million in 1998. It also is the only sub based in B.C. The others, including the HMCS Cornerbrook and Windsor, are docked in Halifax.

Another entry from July 9, 2004 reported: "It is unsafe to run the port main engine for extended periods in its present configuration.

"A coolant leak into the engine room creates an unsafe working environment by increasing personnel exposure to harsh chemicals . . . and creates an increased potential for burns to personnel. Already, leaked coolant has entered the starter for the high-pressure bilge pump causing dangerous equipment damage."

A third entry reported problems with the sub's refrigeration unit that resulted in "a complete loss of capability to store fresh or frozen food on board."

The complete repair report on Victoria totalled 312 pages.

As a precautionary measure, the 70-metre-long surveillance sub has been docked at CFB Esquimalt since Oct. 12, 2004, after Chicoutimi caught fire in the Atlantic Ocean, killing one crewman, Lieut. Chris Saunders. Prior to that, Victoria had seen active service for about two months.

Former Canadian navy submarine commander Peter Kavanagh, who resigned his commission last year over safety concerns with the training of submarine personnel, called some of the needed repairs "major," saying he couldn't predict "whether or not we will ever get to a state where defects won't be significant." While he added that maintenance requirements of submarines are "huge," and that defects are not uncommon, he said in an interview Wednesday: "I do not agree with senior leadership statements that (the four subs) are superior submarines. I also don't know anyone who has sailed in them that would agree with that."

Lt.-Cmdr. Hubert Genest, a public affairs officer with Maritime Forces Pacific, said Wednesday that while he couldn't comment directly on the statements made in the document, it was his understanding that most of the repairs have already been done. "They're quite old and most of them have been fixed," he said.

He also said that while Victoria was in active service, the vessel performed "extremely successfully."

"She was proceeding in her operational readiness very quickly," Genest said. "She performed deep-sea dives, and the crew was progressing very quickly in their technical expertise and their handling of the boat."

Genest wasn't able to say how much money has been spent repairing Victoria, but said that according to an announcement made by Admiral Bruce MacLean last week, Victoria would resume operations "within the next few days or weeks."

Franco Lolan

That's horrible. I think the expression of a car that one buys that is bad is a "lemon". Guess this is a lemon sub. Or a lemonade. lol. sry that's really bad.
Done with AP tests today!

smilingassassin

What about the Oberon class subs, how many teething problems did we have commissioning them into the Canadian navy?

I'm still convinced that the Canadian media is fixated on the presumption that the Canadian military is sub par.

dave angel

why don't the canadians buy into the future submarine project of the RN? its all drawingboard and back of a *** packet stuff, but the RN is looking to replace its trident and attack submarines with a single class of submarine that will carry out both roles. the argument being that a) we are very unlikely to need to shower any opponent with hundreds of nukes in a five minute time-span, and b) in terms of use/cost, and compared to the attack submarines, the tridents are bloody expensive in that they only get used once, and thats half-an-hour before the end of the world.

obviously they would be nuclear powered, and i presume that canada wouldn't want to buy into the trident/trident replacement SLBM (though such a system with a conventional warhead or low-yeild 'bunker-busting' nuke might be very useful in both practical terms and in promoting canada's status as a big-hitter), but it is a class of submarine being produced to US-esque standards, but hopefully without the US-esque price tag. it will also save the RCN from the aggravation of putting up with second-hand gear that it gets no say in the design of.

probably better value in the long run too.

Officer of Engineers

The answer as always is money. The UPHOLDERs/VICTORIAs walkaway price was just too good, even with its problems.

__________________
Chimo

TopHatter

Yeah, as usual.

Sir, not that you need me to tell you this, but your sub guys deserve a LOT better.

Are these subs going to get a full overhaul any time soon?

Officer of Engineers

Strange thing is that our squids wants these subs. I don't know if it's a have-to-like situation or the subs are getting a brush off but the squids want to do the job with those subs.

The Brits were responsible for restoring the UPHOLDERs to their original conditions. Once the subs reached Canadian shores, they go through an upgrade of the electronic packages to USN standards.

However, Rickusn is the person to give you the eval on the conditions of the VICTORIAs and their worth (or lack thereof).

TopHatter

If the Brits were supposed to refit them, then why....?

*muttering to myself*


Disturbing...most disturbing.

dave angel

unpleasent as this may sound, when you paint your house just prior to selling it, do you use the most expensive paint you can find in the shop?

not perhaps an endearing comment on the british MOD, but perhaps an accurate one...

TopHatter

Yeah...very appropos actually

I just figured that the MOD has just a trifle better attitude towards Canada than a homeowner does towards a buyer he has never met before.
After all, just one of those submarines could just maybe possibly save the life of one....or even thousands of British tars.

Shows you how much a person like me knows

dave angel

it appears that our canadian friends had not heard why british civil servants don't go to hell, apparently satan feels they lower the tone of the place....

TopHatter

Ouch...Right between the eyes.

rickusn

Im not so sure Im worthy of this testimonial:

"However, Rickusn is the person to give you the eval on the conditions of the VICTORIAs and their worth (or lack thereof)."

There are Canadian vets on other discussion boards that are more knowledgeable than I.

Ive followed the issues somewhat.

UK kit is usually quite good and much sought after.

The problems with the ex-Upholders is somewhat mystifying to me. All the craftmanship problems in the welding, diesel exhaust valves and wiring to name the most serious is to my knowledge unlike other experiences with UK built vessels. And the leaking torpedo tube issue scares hell out of me. There has also been engine issues. In fairness though most problems have been or are being rectified but it is time consuming.

Canadian training and experience has also come under fire. But from time to time the USN goes through some of the same issues.

The concensus is they will be OK in the long run. They theoretically should be world class subnarines far superior to the Russian Kilo class.

As for major overhauls well that is what has been happening, ongoing for the last seven years. And another round is slated for the 2009-2013 time frame although with the long drawn out reactivation refits, Canadianization refits and operational testing/ correction process this may be pushed back some.

Heres an informative report:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/infocomdoc/Doc...nddnrp01-e.pdf

or if you dont like pdf do a Google for "PROCUREMENT OF CANADA’S VICTORIA CLASS SUBMARINES Report of the ..." and click on the "view as html" button.

Heres another:

http://www.ccs21.org/articles/2005/f...eral_feb05.pdf

or do same as above: "1 Four Submarines and a Funeral * At approximately 10.00 am EST on ..."

As a former submariner I well know the complexity of submarines. I have held off on judging the Canadian purchase because of this.

In 1998 I thought it was a perfect fit for Canada at a phenomenally low price. Even with the teeting problems the RN endured and the subsequent idleness before the reactivation process started.

I knew there would be challenges. Its a shame that the process has been so difficult. Not to mention resulting in a death.

But such is the world of submarining.

Its not for the faint of heart. Its not for the incompetent, arrogant or ignorant.

Things can go very wrong in a hurry and corrections take seemingly forever.

In closing I think in the end they will be seen as an exceptional acquisition. Hows that for going out on a limb? LOL

Time tells all things.

rickusn

The latest:

Navy submarine returns to sea
Last Updated Tue, 17 May 2005 22:43:03 EDT
CBC News
CFB ESQUIMALT, B.C. - The first of four Canadian navy submarines has returned to sea, after they were all grounded in the wake of the deadly fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi last fall.


HMCS Victoria – the only vessel based on the West Coast – set sail from CFB Esquimalt on Tuesday, the navy said.

It underwent extensive safety improvements recommended by the inquiry that looked into a fire that killed a sailor and crippled the Chicoutimi in October 2004.


"HMCS Victoria met all the requirements for a safe return to sea," Vice-Admiral Bruce MacLean, commander of Canada's navy, said in a statement.

"Having implemented all the immediate recommendations from the Chicoutimi board of inquiry, I am satisfied that all our crew and submarine verification work has proven Victoria ready and safe for operations."

The improvements included modifications to the submarines and enhancements to crew procedures and training, he said.

Victoria is one of four mothballed British submarines bought by the Canadian government in 1998. There have been cost overruns and mechanical problems with the subs.

The Chicoutimi board of inquiry made several recommendations, such as putting upgraded electrical cables in the four Victoria-class submarines. It also suggested placing more breathing masks in the submarines, in places that are easily accessible.

Officials are now focusing on the Halifax-based HMCS Windsor, which they expect to return to sea soon.

They said HMCS Corner Brook and Chicoutimi are still being upgraded and repaired.


Four Victoria-class submarines are in the Canadian fleet, each named after a port city (their former names in the Royal Navy appear as well):

HMCS Victoria (HMS Unseen)
HMCS Windsor (HMS Unicorn)
HMCS Corner Brook (HMS Ursula)
HMCS Chicoutimi (HMS Upholder)
Built by the U.K., the subs were mothballed in 1993 in favour of an all-nuclear fleet. The Canadian Forces bought the subs in 1998 for $750 million, but structural problems increased their cost to nearly $900 million.

Victoria operates in the Pacific Ocean out of Esquimalt, B.C. The rest are based in Halifax.

The subs are nearly identical to nuclear subs in design, except for their diesel-electric engines.

TopHatter

Gotta love these idiot reporters. "Grounded"


Thanks for the info Rick. Once they get these subs back into fighting trim, they should be valuable assets to the CF