Anon

I also thought the Italians had gone another route. Been a while since i read up on new Euro shipbuilding programs.

Guess it's time to refresh myself, lol.

rickusn

Sniper:

France and Italy are also building the next generation of replacement frigates titled the FREMM program together to replace all of their existing ASW/multi-purpose frigates/destroyers.

Anon

Yep, looked it all up again last night.

For a program that is now delivering hulls, there is remarkably little online wrt the Horizons.

I couldn't even find a pic of one.

Regardless, based on my recently refreshed memory, Italy gets the boot off the list.

2) Russia
3) UK
4) Spain
5) India

Sorry, still no French.

Europeanarmy

How could you place Spain and not France?
_ France has a real aircraft carrier, Spain has not.
_ France has SSNs and SSBNs, Spain has not.
_ France build its own ships while Spain relies on others for its fleet.
Blabla, I could continue but I think it's pointless.

__________________
Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Anon

Because Spain can actually protect the carrier it does have, and the AV-8B II is a pretty good multi-role fighter(AV-8B II is AMRAAM capable).

France can't protect theirs, the damned thing never works right, and they have a penchant for surrender anyway.

I cannot in good consciense put france at no.5.

Sorry

Europeanarmy

France is able to protect its aircraft carrier. Why?
_ French Rafales and Hawkeyes are already good means to protect the ship against air and naval attacks.
_ French SSNs and ASW ships are good numerous and of good quality for anti-submarine defense.
_ The problems the carrier experienced at the beginning of its life are over now.
_ For anti-air defense, France has the 2 modern Cassard Class Destroyers and will have soon (2006-2009) 2 other destroyers (Forbin Class) built with the Italian navy.

Orcaborealis

Certainly the CdG is a lot larger than Spains PdA mini-carrier. And the Rafale outclasses the spanish AV8-B on all accords short of the VTOL capability. Rafale is more like the superhornet, but looks more stealty.

France has SSNs and SSBNs, Spain has no SSNs and no SSBNs.

The french navys weak spot is the escort fleet. The Cassard class is not very modern, they use the SM-1 missile and doesn't have a phased array radar. Horizon class AAW destroyers still is a few years away, althoug the first was recently launched, but some construction still remains and off course outfitting.
The LaFayette class is lacking in sensors, and the other escorts are getting old.

Spains F-100 outclasses the french carrier escorts by a large margin, especially for AAW.


A real carrier and SSNs and SSBNs outweights better escorts, wouldn't you say?

Orca

Europeanarmy

I don't know if we could say it outweights the escort fleet but I think it's far enough to place France before Spain.
Nevertheless I must admit that the Royal Navy is the more complete fleet of Europe and deserve the top lace of Europe. Especially when its two future aircraft carriers will be constructed.

Anon

The French have no credible fleet AAW capability...but will be correcting that problem as the Horizons come on line.

Talk to me then, i'll bump em up to No.4 probably.

PS: Cassards utilize the SM-1 SAM. They're obsolete WRT AAW.

Anon

"A real carrier and SSNs and SSBNs outweights better escorts, wouldn't you say?"

The SSBNs im just ignoring because no one will ever use them(we all hope). SSBNs are more of a strategic national asset rather than a useful tactical asset. If a shooting war starts, their main goal will be to hide.

SSNs are very good, but IMO, they do not outweigh the near total vulnerability of the French surface fleet to missile attacks.

And the CdG is always broken. When they work the bugs out of it, OK, but for now, the thing can barely achieve flight op speeds, the E-2Cs cant operate off it, and it's just generally proven to be very unreliable.

It's just my opinion, but i can't put france in the top 5 when they have a totally inadequate fleet AAW capability.

Orcaborealis

Why can't the E-2Cs Hawkeyes operate off CdG? CdG operates three E-2Cs.

The CdG and rafale & Super Etendards did take part in the Afghan campaign....
I guess the French must trust Rafale and Mica to keep enemies away from the CdG untill the Horizons are there...in two years time.

But it is not all that bad...it seems the CdG carries several decent radars (Arabel, Jupiter and one more) and the Aster 15 missiles, and as an inner layer the Mistral short range SAM.
Se this link:
CdG

The LaFayettes can be upgraded with Arabel radar and Aster 15 missiles:
LaFayettes
But there is so far no money for such an upgrade.

Orca

Anon

You have to look how the CdG is operated. It will normally be a part of a NATO taskforce, and will have other NATO warships to protect it.

Julie just posted a link in the UK vs France thread about the numerous problems the CdG is having, including the inability to fly the E-2s off her decks. I think it's a catapult problem IIRC.

The ASTER-15s on DeGaulle are excellent missiles, but they're carried in limited quantity, and Mistrals are just your Typical 2d gen MANPADS. When your carrier is your best fleet AAW ship, something isn't right.

Anon

Here ya go:

Originally posted by Julie:

"The Charles de Gaulle??

The French nuclear carrier "Charles de Gaulle" has suffered from a seemingly endless string of problems since it was first conceived in 1986. The 40,000 ton ship has cost over four billion dollars so far and is slower than the steam powered carrier it replaced. Flaws in the "de Gaulle" have led it to using the propellers from it predecessor, the "Foch," because the ones built for "de Gaulle" never worked right and the propeller manufacturer went out of business in 1999. Worse, the nuclear reactor installation was done poorly, exposing the engine crew to five times the allowable annual dose of radiation. There were also problems with the design of the deck, making it impossible to operate the E-2 radar aircraft that are essential to defending the ship and controlling offensive operations. Many other key components of the ship did not work correctly, including several key electronic systems. The carrier has been under constant repair and modification. The "de Gaulle" took eleven years to build (1988-99) and was not ready for service until late 2000. It's been downhill ever since. The de Gaulle is undergoing still more repairs and modifications. The government is being sued for exposing crew members to dangerous levels of radiation.

The cause of the problems can be traced to the decision to install nuclear reactors designed for French submarines, instead of spending more money and designing reactors specifically for the carrier. Construction started and stopped several times because to cuts to the defense budget and when construction did resume, there was enormous pressure on the builders to get on with it quickly, and cheaply, before the project was killed. The result was a carrier with a lot of expensive problems.

So the plan is to buy into the new British carrier building program and keep the "de Gaulle" in port and out of trouble as much as possible. The British have a lot more experience building carriers, and if there are any problems with the British designed ship, the French can blame the British."

Orcaborealis

Even so, CdG was taking part in the Afghan campaign, and I'm sure they will fix most or all problems...problems with a new design is common...remember the British type 23 frigates and their combat systems - or lack of such...

I noticed the phrasing "there were also problems"...maybe they have found a way around that problem so that they can operate Hawkeyes now?

They will not accept that CdG, such a large investment, is unusable for the future, so bit by bit the problems will be sorted out.

But CdG will have to be more expensive than planned, and that migh bite into other projects, such as the planned FREMM multipurpose frigates. I wouldn't be surprised to se these build in smaller numbers than originally planned.

rickusn

As much as I dislike France I do have one point. They can and do project power worldwide.

You are right about the Cassards even worse their SM-1 system is recycled from previous DDGs. It was a cheap way to provide AAW escorts. They were originally programmed to receive ASTER-30 missles. Apparently with the decision to build four of the Forbin class this wont happen now.


India, China, Spain and Italy cant and dont project power world-wide. They all have plans to change that to varying degrees. Although Spain and Italy seem to be content to confine their activities to the MED for the most part. India and China have a larger vision.

Japan has better AAW escorts than all of them IMHO. When it comes to top-line surface combatants they have more than those four combined plus their replacement shipbuilding program is much more robust. Excellent SSK's and they could easily field 30 of them in a short time they now have 23 including fully operational units nominally designated training submarines. Plus a # of less than 30 year old units in reserve. Six large AOE's mean they can stay at sea for prolonged periods.

They are modern accross the board, well-trained, well-maintained and well- funded. The four new(building) DDH typed ships are actually carriers and they want the F-35(or similar aircraft) in the worst way. If the USN no longer homeports a carrier in Japan after 2008 they are poised to fill the vacuum virtually instantaneously. A true large carrier they could build in four years or less.

They have the money, infrastructure and technical expertise to become #2 in the world in five years if they wanted and all signs point to it for their own survival if nothing else. They are totally dependent on world trade and an unfettered access to raw materials in particular oil.

And they are #5 now hands down. If you dont like France 4th. LOL

In fact their AAW escorts beat the UK and Russia. As all their systems are obsolete also.