kuku

Yes that is why we are buying the planes, the tanks, and the ships from them.

And that is the reason we ave a lot of military JVs with them and what not.

However for equipment where other better options are available which we can afford we will buy them.

Like the ship in question.

Blademaster

Are you ****ing kidding me? COmmunists are one of the biggest reasons why India still lags behind China and rest of the world. Thanks to its idiotic socialist and communists crap, we are 10 years behind China.

Are you a commie?

gamercube

Kuku, let's not use weasel words here. Both the articles state that the ship was transferred under the agreement that it would not be used in "offensive operations". The ship is a transport ship. It is supposed to transport troops. If it cannot be used for "offensive operations", then it is useless during any war or short term conflict.

Doesn't matter! It is a INS now! No one has the right to inspect a ship of the Indian Navy whenever they want....no other country to my knowledge would allow India to inspect it's naval ships whenever India wants. This is utter subservience to a foreign power. If Russia insisted that they wanted to inspect Gorshkov whenever they wanted even after it was transferred to the Indian Navy, I'd be screaming my lungs out too!

Do you think the US would allow India the right to inspect any of their ships whenever we wanted?

Sardaukar,

Do you think that American equipment doesn't suffer from those problems? Forgot how the Indian Navy's Sea King choppers were grounded during the Kargil War because lack of spare parts due to American sanctions?


I don't think the Trenton was bought because it is "better" than any Russian transport ship. It's a vintage 50 year old ship decomissioned by the US Navy. The Trenton was probably bought to keep the Americans happy and show them that we're interested in their military hardware.

Ad hominem.

Attack the argument, if you wish. Do you think the nuclear deal is in India's interest? The Congress seems to think so. It's only because of the communists that the deal has been stalled.

__________________
Hasta la Victoria siempre!

kuku

weasel words?

define "offensive operations" as it has been stated in the contract,
here is the deal, you can not, hence its best to wait for the navy to come up with a answer.

What Gorshkov? where is this ship? dont see it with the Indian Navy.

Utter subservience to a foreign power, hell yes it is, and you know why, because we do not have a indigenous industry, while we build towards it we have to do all of this, if you think the Russians are all "lets have Vodka, and sing and dance", wake up, its not the 1980s anymore.

Bloody hell, if they want to sell the ship on their terms, they are not making a secret out of it, and the Navy has accepted these terms which shows that they are not concerned about the security side of it, you should give them that much credit.

if they had to buy it from us, they might have been in a tight spot.

What Russian transport ship?

We have nothing to gain by keeping the Americans or Russians happy, you seriously think the Americans are happy just because we payed them for a second hand ship?

We need military equipment and technology, that is just one part of the mutual relations picture.

And as it looks after the sea dragons upgrade, Kilo upgrade, Gorshkov disaster, price increase on other ships along with delays, Withholding technology for the Brahmos missile, can you blame the navy for trying to stay away from Russian stuff.

On the other end is the Indian Army and AF, they seem to be happy with the T-90s and SU-30s, and ordering more of them every chance they get.

Its not about Russia or USA being this evil foreign force trying to rob us of our freedom, or the military and government being against the Russians.


- are we planning anymore nuclear tests?
- any added supplies we get are better than none?
- can we afford to have a seperate civilian and military nuclear program?
- are we planning to pass the nuclear weapons technology to other nations?
You shall find your own answers.

IF it was up to the red front, we would not have nuclear weapons, they are not concerned about the Nuclear side of it, they are concerned abut the "USA" side of it. And their good friends Russia and do not even have the say to supply us with fuel for the reactors they are selling us, some international power they are.

gamercube

I don't think the phrase "offensive operations" has been defined in the contract. It is pretty obvious what "offensive operations" are. The only case where there might be a doubt is whether to use the ship in UN operations.

So because we don't have an indigenous industry, we should accept whatever terms any foreign supplier sets us? You don't mind such terms being set on us? When was the last time the Russians asked for a right to inspect our ships whenever they wanted, and when was the last time we allowed them to?

You did not answer my question. Define "tight spot".


So why is this the first time ever that India has bought an American ship? Do you think that the Americans never had any "military equipment and technology" in which we were interested before?

-Can you predict what we will be planning 10 years from now?
-Are added supplies of uranium enough to sacrifice the technological evolution of our nuclear stockpile and political independence?
-Not even an issue.
-Again, not an issue.

The issue is with us being able to keep our nuclear weapon technology up-to-date by subcritical testing. The US conducts sub-critical tests of nuclear weapons all the time, even now, as do the P-5. In India's case, they are trying to even prohibit India from conducting sub-critical tests. There's already sanctions in place to deny India supercomputers powerful enough to conduct simulations of nuclear tests, and India's current capability to do so on its own is unknown/unproven.

If we do sign the agreement, and in the future, feel the need to conduct nuclear tests, then we won't be able to, unless we're willing to risk cutting of uranium supplies to our power plants which might by then supply 10-15%% of our total energy. Large swathes of the country would be plunged in darkness and the billions of dollars of investment into those nuclear plants would go down the drain.

I'd like to refer you to this thorough discussion we had on the nuclear deal lst year:

A question about the nuclear deal

Please go through it, as the issues are discussed in details.

gamercube

It doesn't matter what their objection is. The point is that the only reason that the nuclear deal hasn't gone through yet is because of the opposition of the Communists. They might have the wrong reasons for opposing it, but the outcome will only be the better for India.

kuku

everything have to be defined in contract, otherwise strikes based on intelligence can be called as defensive actions.

Yes that is it, develop or accept.

I do not mind such terms being set on us, as long as they are not hampering
the usage of the equipment for the purpose it is to serve.

The Russians have not asked for such things, they wont turn down a military equipment contract.

That does not add anything to this, as it is not a Russian ship.

Okie, if we were selling some military equipment and had pre set requirements (let us say not using the euipment in a military training with pakistan or china) for that sale people buying the equipment will have to follow the requirements , or go look in other places.

You did not answer my question, what Russian transport ship?
This is the first time that we have the opportunity to do so.

- can you?
- what political independence? Registering empty complaints about US aggression on Vietnam in the UN.
- If they are not an issue, why are we bothered about the deal.

There are plenty of arguments around discussing the nuclear deal to the smallest possible detail.

And yes the pros and cons are discussed in that thread.

Adux

What a load of ********, We bought the rust bucket 50million(read again including heli's and fittings), we bought it to understand how it works, start up Indian LPD program, Start drawing up doctrine for amphibious warfare, and have something in the hour of crsis such as the Tsunami, not flood INS DELHI and MYSORE with survivors. INS Jalashawa will only serve us for 5-10 years. And lets not talk about vintage stuff and Indian Armed forces. thank you Communist.

Where is the CAG for all the Russian delays, and sub-standard equipment. How many of our MiG pilots have been killed because of their sub-standard equipment? Rang De Basanti anyone?

I cant even believe the audacity with which commie's come up with conspiracy theories. Its always someone else's fault, always. I guess China, Kerala and West Bengal are paradise for all poor people.

Adux

For all the American Human rights abuse calling; Where is our dear old Communist calling for Chinese human rights violations in Tibet???????
Double Standards anyone??

Sea Toby

The US is building new LPDs to replace their older LPDs. The new San Antonio class LPDs costs over $1.5 billion. India is getting an older used LPD for $50 million. Yes, the United States do have strings for their FMS programs, always have.

Never-the-less India is getting a wonderful old ship. The ship is designed to carry several helicopters, can transport easily over 500 troops, and all of their equipment and supplies. The United States have found these ships useful for amphibious operations, and for civilian evacuations. These ships have also been very useful in humanitarian missions after earthquakes, floods, drought, and after volcanic eruptions.

India got a steal, Australia paid much more converting a LST into a lesser ship 15 years ago.

__________________
http://homepage.mac.com/donclark/.Public/waglogo.gif

Sardaukar

Let's please keep the issues separate.... let's forget the commies and the bad quality stuff the russians deliver cause they have nothing to do with the Trenton and the deal itself.

A navy ship is normally sovereign territory and contractual obligations of this kind they really shock me. It may have no practical importance but the mere symbolic significance of this is just stunning.

chankya

I suppose this effectively junks any more deals with the US for a considerable period while some committee or the other looks into it.

Once again MMS decides he wants to sneak things past us. Accountability is good. Even if the ship is to be used as a training platform and some sort of "study" is to be made of it, it would be better if atleast the parliamentary committee on defence planning was in the know.

__________________
"Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

KENT

In my opinion, BJP and CPM were looking out for an opportunity over this issue to bring the rulling government in dock. The deal had been finalised much before and nobody had made any noise about it and now suddenly when this tidbits of BJP and CPM couldn't find any reason to bash the government so they have come out with this futile attempt of bashing the government on an american terms with the Trenton.

kuku

Man 50 million USD, i bet even the helicopters would have been more expensive than that, a good way to slowly learn and increase the Amphibious ability of the navy.

I hope the navy comes out with a statement soon, this is turning into the good old mud slinging politics.

The ship will also be used in many situations, besides serving as a training platform.

If a situation where it has to be used in a "offensive situation" comes around, i doubt the Navy will wait around for the American permission to do so.

__________________
cheers

Adux

India agreed to the conditions, primarily because India wanted to Learn from the Trenton and build amphibious capability. India intends to build its own LPD's based on French Mistral Class.

If US is going to put strings, then India wont do business with the US. Make no doubt about that.