JA Boomer

Hello,

I was looking through some pics today, and found some of the USS Pinckney, an Arleigh Burke Flight IIA ship. It seems to have some sort of superstructure modification just behind the rear funnel, and only on the starboard side. It almost looks like a boat hanger or something similar to me. Does anyone know what the function of this modification is? Did the Pinckney come out of the shipyard like this or was it added on later? Are any other systems modified or removed to accommodate this...thing?

I think the USS Pinckney is the only Burke class to have this modified superstructure. Any help would be appreciated, just curious...it looked so out of place haha.

Thx, Boomer

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Gun Grape

It looks like the hanger for the AN/WLD-1(V)1 Mine Reconnaissance System.

She was the first ship to get it.

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gunnut

Going through navsource.org, it appears only a handful of Flight IIAs have this mod. Some later ships don't even have them.

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Transient

Anybody knows which of the Flight IIAs still have Phalanx mounted on them?

JA Boomer

I belive that DDG-85 USS McCampbell and all ships in the Flight after her, do NOT have the Phalanx systems mounted on them.

gunnut

Is that because of the introduction of ESSM?

Gun Grape

DDG 91 - 96 should have it.

I think they decided that LCS would embark it after that.

I think Momsen is still the only ship to have the actual system installed.
NCSC Panama City is having problems with it.

Gun Grape

Yep.

JA Boomer

I always wondered about this move. I have little doubt that the ESSM missile is a very effect air defense platform, and that it would have little trouble intercepting missiles that either got through the SM-2ER's or were fired in close proximity to the ship. The thing is, I don't think the ESSM is a close-in-weapons-system. It's fired from VLS tubes, so there is a certain arc it must take to reach its target, meaning there is a minimum distance a target can be away from the ship for the ESSM to engage it. Systems like the Phalanx and the RAM are point-and-shoot systems. They can fire at targets coming towards to ship even at very close ranges.

I have always thought it would be best to have a CIWS on any surface combatant, and thought the US Navy should have installed RAM's in place of the Phalanx systems in the newer ships to back-up the ESSM. I know this would be very redundant, but you can never be too careful. Some may say that if the ESSM can't intercept it, it's already too late, but would you rather a CIWS destroy an incoming missile 200 meters away or let it hit the ship?

Also, there is the secondary issue of anti-surface warfare. The Phalanx and RAM both have mods that allow for these systems to engage small surface targets (talking about nailing small boats in the littorals here). I believe both systems operate via infrared imaging and can also be manual controlled (at least in the Phalanx's case). This is also a significant capability that is lost without a CIWS.

Although I don't think the US Navy will be regretting its decision to remove the two CIWS from the newest Burke class Destroyers in favor of an ESSM last-ditch response weapon, I do think that it makes them slightly less capable. I for one would like to see a ship with ESSM for close-in air defense, two RAMs for CIWS, and a port and starboard 25mm Bushmaster mount (which in combination with the RAM launchers, would effectively deal with the surface threats in the littorals).

Although the Burkes look "cleaner" without the Phalanx's installed, I think the front looks a little empty now, with the raised portion of the superstructure just ahead of the bridge now being empty. I noticed on the KDX-III design (which is based on the Burke) they do indeed have a RAM launcher installed in this position. Maybe the US should consider making the last Flight of burkes with the raised superstructure removed, and install a 64 cell VLS instead of the current 32 cell. Yes, I realize that this would require vast amounts of work and changes to the design, and will never happen, it's all just my imagination and opinions coming out.

gunnut

Or they can always incorporate these ideas in the next generation destroyer based on the Burke hull.

ray dekker

The ESSM you can install in quad packs in one cell so you can have 128 ESSM in the front launchers - total would be 384! Still want more?
Loaded in a “quad-pack” canister
for the MK 41 VLS, in a
“dual pack” canister

http://www.raytheon.com/products/ste...s01_055809.pdf

The German Navy by the way has 2 RAM on every ship from Corvette size up (around 1800 t) and one on the speedboats (40 knots around 400 t)
they don`t use any cannon based CIWS (Millennium, Phalanx, Goalkeeper,etc.)
Sorry in german, but you can scroll down to see the armament:
Fregatte SACHSEN-Klasse
Fregatte BRANDENBURG-Klasse
Fregatte BREMEN-Klasse
Korvette BRAUNSCHWEIG-Klasse
Schnellboote GEPARD-Klasse

but a very fast fiering 27mm gun (1700/sec) for speedboat defence.
Rheinmetall AG - MLG 27 Light Naval Gun System

Even the airdefence fregattes (Sachsen) use few missiles in comparison to the US Navy (24 SR-2, 32 ESSM) so they have a total of 32 cells, which doesn´t find everybody happy here!

kato

Germany has a different approach however: They use a "package" thinking.

Every German frontline ship (corvettes, frigates, the AORs are fitted-for-but-not-with) has an identical "close-self-defence" package that currently consists of a set of:
- two RAM Block 1 (against missiles/aircraft)
- two 27mm guns (against boats at higher range)
- multiple (two-four depending on size) decoy launchers (MASS usually)
- two .50cal MGs (against boats at close range)

Even the F125 will have exactly that package - the asymmetric-warfare .50cal RWS systems do not cut into it, it'll e.g. still have the manually-controlled MGs despite them.

Any and all changes to that package are applied fleet-wide - last one was exchange of older decoy systems for MASS, before that the exchange of manually-controlled 20mm guns for 27mm remote-controlled systems.
I'd predict the next large upgrade to the package to be HAS mode for the RAM (giving it full above-water all-target spectrum capability) btw.

The German Navy does not see ESSM at the "close-self-defence layer", but at the "limited-escort-defence layer", mostly due to its range and VLS requirement, just like NSSM before.

The speedboats btw always operate in packs of two minimum, which with overlapping fire have the same as above (sans the 27mm guns for lack of space).

Dreadnought

DDG81 Winston Churchill has two stations of Phalanx.

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Transient

Thanks, Boomer and Dreadnought.

JA Boomer

No prob, and it is the USS Bulkeley (DDG-84) which was the last of the Burke class to be fitted with the two Phalanx systems.