zraver

The two greatest maritime powers of all time the RN and the USN. Both earned their title after vicious wars that saw hundreds of ships and tens of thousands of men thrown into the grinder.

I have a question that should hopefully bring some good debate. Rather than pitting two might have beens or what ifs against one another. Lets evaluate two real life struggles an debate the relative merits of each.

Nelson and Royal Navy vs the French and Spanish vs Hasley and the United States Navy vs the Imperial Japanese Navy. Both had to fight several battles agaisnt large enemy fleets far from home.

1- Who faced the toughest foe and had the slimmest margin of predicatable victory on paper prior to the conflict.

2- Which admiral was the better battle commander.

3- Who won the most, the most descively

4- what mistakes in any did each participant make that helped the other side.

5- how even was the technology and crew quality of each side.

I think these type of questions could lead to some very good reading.

arment

Here's my stab at one of the questions based on the Battle of Trafalgar vs. The Battle of Leyte Gulf.
The UK had fewer ships than their opponents (27 vs. 33) and the battle of Trafalgar was fought around spanish waters, but their crews were better trained, far more experienced and had better firepower than the combined French/Spanish fleet.

Admiral Halsey on the other hand had overwhelming advantages over the Japanese in terms of quantity, quality and firepower. So I'd say the UK faced the tougher foe at the battle of Trafalgar.

Stan

I would say the Americans had the tougher Job (this kills me to say by the way).

At Trafalgar the British fleet were aware of the numbers and were aware of the location of the fleet - well relatively.
While out numbered the British had the better ships and the crew to get the job done and they did so.

USN vs IJN - At the start of the war the Japanese had the jump on the states with their attack at Pearl. They were much more experienced at carrier warfare compared to the states.

Considering how Midway could have gone the USN survived a much tougher task over a much longer period.


If i could have been at any Naval battle it would have been none of the above. Jutland all the way.

zraver

I was going for the whole war, the French/Spanish intially managed quite a few sorties and breakouts but by Trafalgar like Leyte the tide had turned decisively one way.

Dreadnought

Excellent brain buster worth pondering for awhile. Many things to consider:

1) Vessels of those days propulsion, protection, gunnery.
2) Technology
3) Tactics
4) Training and experience.
5) Distance/Logistics and resources.
6) Nature and the Seas
7) Morale

*Probably one of the best if not the best question posed here in a long time.

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zraver

thank you I am looking forwar dto what the communties naval experts have to say. Ultimately I think the RN had the harder job. France and Spain started out with more mnpower, more wealth, more ports, a bigger stock of raw materials etc. While the RN played the role of Japan in the othe rpart of the verses thread, a small island nation of limited resources taking on a continental sized powerhouse. And yet unlike Japan, the RN won hands down in the end. A RN ship of the line parked just outside your port is no different that carrier based fighrers flying over your home land.

jeffpayne56

and nelson had god on his side i.e wind

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Albany Rifles

The RN had a vastly superior manpower pool serving aboard its vessels during the Napoleonic war versus the French and the Spanish.

Conversely, the USN against the IJN was a different matter, with the IJN have a much greater degree of professionals at the start of the war vice the USN. The WW II USN was composed of hostilties only sailors and officers with a leavening of experienced regulars. I believe at Leyte the average age of a US sailor was 19.6 years of age....on of whom was my Dad who south of that number.

My Dad told me the story of a friend of his from the old neighborhood....name of Mark. Mark had 2 years of college so he got a commission (21 years old). He was sent to a shipyard in Illinois where he became, as an ensign, the XO of an LST. His captian was a LTJG (22 years old). Of th eentire crew, they had boatswains mate who was 24...he was the oldest and most experienced...joined the Navy in 1939. Anyway the sailed their LST down the Mississippi, out into the Gulf and across the Atlantic to the UK. That was their shakedown cruise. The first time they birthed their ship was near Portsmouth. After they pulled away from their birth, the next time they "birthed" it was in the afternoon of 6 June 44 at a place called Omaha. Mark said it wasn't unitl their third trip across the Channel that they stopped saying left and right and satrted saying port and starboard.

That little story is actually a kind of microcosm of the development of the USN in WW II.

Oh, and Ray Spruance was a better commander than Halsey....Spruance actually GOT the Japanese carriers (Midway, Phillipine Sea) which Halsey tried to get.


PS: I don't have time to grammar or spell check..sorry!

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Speedy

My take on this, taking into account the entire wars not just specific battles.

1. British

2. Nelson

3. U.S.A.

4. too many to answer

5.Napoleonics- Technology even, superior British crew quality.
WW2 - U.S.A. had superior technology, Japanese had slightly better crew quality.