Dreadnought

Sir,
Your above assesment may be correct since you do have plenty of experience
in these situations and is well noted. But Id make one hell of a second.

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Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

The Chap

Sadly the "Rebel Class" were better as ships go. The puzzling factor, above and beyond previous "ifs" is that of ammo. Quickly skimming through this thread I see mention of weight, range, volume etc. but not type. Hard about with full chain would destrroy any yankie advantage nomatter the wind and swell. A precarious situation for the middleweight!

I have two bits of "HMS Victory" . One is a copper hull plate purchased to fund her refubishment, and the other a slab of original oak upon which is mounted a rather nice model of her. Looking at her, I don't think (even with that much vulnerable rigging) there could be anything other than one outcome.

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Where's the bloody gin? An army marches on its liver, not its ruddy stomach.

Parihaka

As regards the chain I was going to mention it as the Yanks best chance, especially mixed with grape, unfortunately they've all been so busy discussing whether they'd have the bottle I clean forgot.
I suspect the Victory's captain would consider his weight superiority enough justification to pound the Constitutions hull.
One full broadside of chain/grape from the Constitution, esp. from those caronades on the up-roll could do a lot of disabling. Problem being you'd need to close to acheive it, and flying an American flag like Cochrane wouldn't really do.

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In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Bluesman

No false-flag ruse-de-guerre would be likely to work, because there's nothing an American frigate can look enough like to get anywhere close enough to the sharp eyes on Victory before they were fully ready to beat the bejeezus out of whatever offered battle.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

The Chap

Aaaah, but sheer volume ... ( kiwi ) The secondary "if" deserves "keelhauling"

Expat Canuck

Makes you wonder how well you would have done if he wasn't doesn't it? Imagine a young USA having to deal with the full attention of the British.

Expat Canuck

Bingo! Was not the British armed forces the only ones at that time to practice with actual ammunition as opposed to just running drills?

I could be wrong, I'm a bit fuzzy on my facts for this point in history.

JAD_333

I read somewhere that the Admiralty was very stingy with powder and shot for practice. Weathier captains bought their own practice ammo. Broke of the HMS Shannon used to run dry drills everyday and had invented some
rapid firing and aiming tools. The Americans crews on the Chesapeake who went out to engage the Shannon outside Boston Harbor were supposedly very good, but Broke's day-after-day drills and sure shooting overwhelmed the Chesapeake in 4-5 minutes. Then Broke led a boarding party that prevailed. Total time of action, under 15 minutes. And this was frigate on frigate, almost evenly matched on weight of iron.

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To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

TopHatter

You and JAD are both correct in a sense.

The Royal Navy placed great value on gunnery, especially a high rate of fire, which is why they tended to win.

But powder and shot were not always available in great quantities and it was left to individual captains to determine how heavily their crews drilled.

Some were like Broke and others were not.

Broke and his Shannons were certainly prepared for their battle and it showed rather dramatically. They "wanted the win" and got it.

I do wonder how they would have faired against Stephen Decauter and United States or Isaac Hull and Constitution.

JAD_333

Both would probably have been tougher fights for Broke, but given the speed and amazing accuracy of Broke's gun crews, he stood at least an even chance.

Bluesman

I don't think there was any combination of non-American frigate and crew that could beat an American 44-gunner. The Yankee crews were superb, and their ships were so much superior that, barring really horrible luck or something that couldn't be counted on to occur, HMS Shannon would've been grossly over-matched. (Like Victory against Constitution.)

Bluesman

I don't think so; crew quality would've been on a par AT LEAST; but the ships? Not really even in the same class, whether the Americans were called frigates or not.

JAD_333

I have to admit, you're probably right as to the outcome.

GAU-8

With all due respect, I can't buy the Taffy III comparison. They were trapped. They had two choices:
1. Go down swinging.
2. Go down swinging.

HMS Victory traveling alone? That's a reach. But let's grant it. The frigate is more maneuverable, so it would have the choice to engage or not. Why on Earth would a captain of a frigate engage HMS Victory? But let's grant it. As stated before, his crew would be justified in reliving him of command. As stated before, he'd have to play every card he held just right to avoid annihilation by HMS Victory.

It could be attempted given a mad captain, a willing crew, perfect ship handling, and ideal conditions. What sort mauling would ensue? That's why we have the W.A.B.

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When a prang seems inevitable, endeavor to strike the softest, cheapest object in the vicinity, as slowly as possible. --WW II RAF Instructor Pilot

Dreadnought

If chance presented itself I would want to be there waiting.