Parihaka

Not that I'm aware of. Despite the RN claims over the taking of the USS President, the true nature of these ships is that after 1812 the RN began an extensive building campaign based on the same heavy frigate concept. Actions speak louder than words.

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glyn

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Parihaka

I'd invite people to have a read of this, a contemporary battle to the one being postulated, and involving the Constitutions sister-ship, the President.

Military History Online - Belated Triumph: The Capture of the Frigate President


Descriptions of ships that took part
HMS Endymion (1797) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
USS President (1800 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
HMS Majestic (1785) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HMS Pomone (1811) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd especially invite everyone to read the description of how the Endymion, with less weight of shot but greater manouverability cut the President by raking her.

Dreadnought

As mentioned, weather would have been a factor; in moderate winds, the Victory would have been a hard pressed to protect its stern, which American frigates seemed to favor over duking it out broadside to broadside.
__________________

Aka "Trick of the tail"

The movie Master & Commander portayed this particular manuver as a favorite of the French navy as well even while at battle with a ship less her own guns and length.

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JAD_333

Cut her perhaps, but run off by her as well. Endymion hung back and avoided the President's broadside which, as you know, she could do only because President was damaged by having run aground earlier in the day. So, throw weight probably didn't matter.

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zraver

That RoF might be true of British Frigates, but ships of the line were crewed by reserves and impressed men and crew wise were at a decided disadvantage to the professional American (many of them British sailors) sailors.

One might argue that the effective amount of shot making contact on the other was nearly even or in favor of the Americans given the presumably superior accuracy and higher rate of fire of the American crews vs the British reserve crews combined with the two ships speed and agility.

Parihaka

No indeed. Just goes to show what you can do with a less weight of iron but more manouverability.

Dreadnought

IMO Once the mainmast is severed, the sails holed or the hull holed beneath the water line there goes the neighborhood and now you have panic. The weight of broadside is a factor ONLY if it reaches its target of aim. It can be a hinderance as well as an advantage if the ship is taking on a list.

The trick of the tail manuver serves two purposes. One firing into the stern on most vessels of those days put the captains and other cabins (sail master, quater master, master at arms etc) in direct line of fire to a well aimed broadside or deck sweeper guns. (Such as a reverse crossing the "T") The second is a point blank shot at the rudder which with even a small cannon can do unrepairable damage and bring your enemy to a dead stop and set her up for a boarding.

JAD_333

That's like saying a champion boxer is only a factor if he can hit his opponent.
Fact is, weight of broadside was a key factor and the reason why fourth raters didn't often take on first raters alone. I'll grant that once the more powerful ship is compromised in some way, a lower rated ship can be more effective against it, but generally speaking naval capitains in those days were very respectful of throw weight.

Bluesman

I'd bet on the Victory, but I wouldn't give odds, I'll tell you that. Because the Constitution is simply the last word in fighting-sail frigates, and a dam' tough customer.

Too many 'ifs' for the Yankee to come out on top, BUT...if their luck was running high, if they were sharp and the English were dull, if the wind was 'just so, and IF early on some miracle golden BB had somehow managed to hurt Victory long enough (a jammed rudder, a wounded mast, captain goes down, etc.) for Constitution to get in some good rakes to even it up...

But here's the thing: NO captain could or would count on ANY of that happening to risk his ship in a long-odds prayer-for-the-win battle. Constitution would fire any long guns at max range, and haul away on her best point of sailing and consider herself lucky to live through the encounter and heroic for even getting a hit on that behemoth.

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ArmchairGeneral

Um, kind of. It's saying that a killer right hook is only a factor if it connects. A lighter, faster boxer can kill a heavier boxer if he can connect hits and the big guy can't, and also if those hits hurt. Constitution's speed and maneuverability might allow her to hit without getting hit back. If she crossed the tee with Victory a couple of times, she could do some serious damage.

But, like Blues said, that's a lot of ifs.

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Dreadnought

Agreed JAD,
But if the ship is damaged and taking on water all of those guns large and small will contribute to the list and very quickly depending on the damage incurred those guns may not be capable of bearing on the target and hasten the list much more quickly its at these times that fatal accidents happen down below in the galleries.

astralis

where's the vote for the HMS Pinafore?

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glyn

JAD_333

You're right, of course. However, one assumes that at the outset of a battle between unevenly matched ships, the more powerful one is the theoretical winner. We've been indulging in what-ifs, all of which are possible. But what-if occur during a battle. Now before the battle, would you as the captain of the Independence order it into battle one-on-one with the Victory, and I don't mean hail mary ranging shots, but up close and personal?