JAD_333

Properly handled, Victory wins with shear firepower. She could throw 1,100 lbs of shot a broadside compared to Constitution's 700. Depends, also, on when they meet. For a time Victory carried 42 pounders which could do a lot of damage; that is, provided, the seas where moderate enough so the lower deck gun ports could be opened to fire them. As mentioned, weather would have been a factor; in moderate winds, the Victory would have been a hard pressed to protect its stern, which American frigates seemed to favor over duking it out broadside to broadside.

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Parihaka

HMS Victory circa 1812

Lower deck: 30 x 32
Middle deck: 28 x 18
Upper deck: 30 x 12
Quarter deck: 8 x 32
carronades Forecastle: 2 x 32, 2 x 12

USS Constitution circa 1812

30 × 24 pounder (11 kg) long gun
20 × 32 pounder (15 kg) carronade
2 × 24 pounder (11 kg) bow chasers

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JAD_333

HMS Victory........
1778 11th March: The 30 bronze 42 pounders were removed and replaced with 30 x 32 pounders. Admiral Keppel disliked the 42 pounder for the following reasons: gun crew too large; rate of fire slower and the bronze / brass guns, recoiled violently when hot).

1779 The 30 x 32 pounders were removed and replaced with 30 x 42 pounders as original. 8 x 12 pounder carronades were fitted as...

Parihaka

Source

Note I said circa 1812

gunnut

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TopHatter

Now it's a cannon pissing contest

This is actually turning into a good thread.

gunnut

You mean you had doubts?

JAD_333

Yes, I noted it, but I was too damn lazy to correct my mistake. Don't I owe you an injustice for something.

Parihaka

I'm sure I've misled you somewhere or other

dundonrl

having been onboard the Constitution, and seen how she is constructed, it's going to take alot of pounding too get through the 20 or so inches of wood her sides are constructed out of...

from what I understand, she's built like a cut down ship of the line, not your average frigate..

pdf27

Victory IS a ship of the line. Waterline hull thickness on the Victory is about 2ft by the way...

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Stan

being a former resident of fareham and taking the gosport ferry across to portsmouth far to many times.

there is nothing like seeing the masts of victory and nelson on your way to work to inspire you.

Victory is an amazing ship that survives to this day to explain why Pax Britannica lasted so long.

Parihaka

While a fine ship, Victory doesn't have the internal bracing of the Constitution nor was her oak of as good a quality.
She was built with a permanent list requiring several tons of permant ballast. Ironically this probably made her, while not fast, a steady sailer, part of her reputation as a good steady comfortable ship.
The bottom line however is that while the Victory has the greater impact over distance, closer-too both are pretty much matched in firepower, and both on weight of lead can sink the other.
What it comes down to is the hull design. The Constitution is the next generation. She points higher, goes faster and turns better.
Ignoring the chance of loosing a mast, the Constitution can outmanover the Victory and rake her: imagine each of those carronades firing in turn as she crosses the Victory's stern.
Victory's only advantage is her stability. If the winds are high she's only really getting up to speed, whereas the Constitution is reefing and might not be able to open her lower gun deck ports. At that point, Constitution should run away as fast as she can, or get innovative.

zraver

Also the RN tradition relied on Frigates for its peace time force and flag bearers. Frigates their captains and crews were the equivalent of rock star astronauts for their time. The same cannot be said about ships of the line that were manned by reserve crews and captained by less promising officers who not matter how good were judged by the RN as unfit for a frigate command. In fact IIRC most RN ships of the line were kept in the equivalent of mothballs (laid up in ordinary) until war broke out and then manned by who ever was at hand.

The USS Constitution has an absolute edge in crew and officer quality in 1812.

Plus like Par alluded to she had better and newer construction with better materials, a speed and maneuverability advantage and barring losing a mast was all but immune at long range to the British guns. Wiki says the RN of the time considered the ships equal to a 4th rate ship of the line but required RN frigates to avoid contact unless it was 2-1 or better which is the equivalent of a 3rd rate ship.

JAD_333

If you saw the movie Master and Commander there's the scene where Capt Aubrey, RN, is admiring a model of the framing of a new US frigate and coming to understand why his shot in an earlier engagement with one did no damage, and he says, "what a wonderful, modern age we live in." Then, looking at the stern, he cheers up and remarks that every ship has its vulnerability.

Is there any instance of one of these "modern" US frigates taking on a RN first rater single handed? I suppose if one could gain the weather gauge and wait for the right conditions it could have given Victory a hot time.

The Victory's approx 1,100 lbs of throw weight per broadside is signifcantly more than Constitution's approx 760 lbs, but it might not matter much given the tactics you suggest Constitution would likely follow in taking on Victory.