YellowFever

PubDaddy is back!

All is right with the WAB now.

WB, buddy.

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...If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!

Dreadnought

Somebody needs a true history lesson on islamic extremism.
Yeah its all our fault. Its our fault for letting it go for so long while the host countries of these people ignored their existance then when they blow something up and we end up on their doorstep they look at us like were from Mars? Yeah its our fault! Please!

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Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

Dreadnought

Well if were so dam wrong in doing this why dont your country step up to the plate? Any takers? I thought not Like everbody else no end to the critics but yet none willing to call the ball.

Stan

really dont like this jmh chap even though he is allowed his opinions.

btw anyone wanna talk about one of the issues in my original post about sorites e.t.c will a cvf using ramp e.t.c be able to inflict the same kind of dmg as a nimitz?

JMH

You really don't like me? Or is it that you really don't like the truth?

As for the Nimitz class CVN vs. the proposed British Class CVF, you should realize that the CVF is not a super carrier, even though it is about the same size as the Forrestal it does not carry the same amount of munitions, weapons, jet-fuel and aircraft. The maximum size air group for the CVF is between 48 and 50 aircraft. (36 JSF, 4 AEW aircraft, and eight to ten helicopters) a Nimitz Class CVN maximum size air group is 85 to 90 aircraft (24 F-18E, 48 F-18C, 6 S-3 Vikings, 4 Hawkeye, 4 Greyhounds, 5 SH-60B). Just because these carriers are able to carry this size of air group does not mean a carrier will deploy with its maximum complement of aircraft. An air group on an Aircraft Carrier in tailored by numbers and types of aircraft based on mission requirements and availability of aircraft and trained crewman. In sheer firepower and capability the Nimitz Class CVN is about 60% greater than the proposed British CVF. But it is highly unlikely that a CVF would deploy with its full complement of aircraft. Today’s US Navy carriers usually only carry about 56 strike aircraft (F-18's), the most likely number of aircraft carried by the proposed British CVF would be about one third of what it is capable of carrying (12 JSF, 2 AEW Aircraft, 6-9 Helicopters). With these reduced size air groups the Nimitz Class CVN compares about 70-30 to the proposed British CVF. With full aircraft complements the Nimitz class compares about 80-20 with the proposed British CVF in terms of firepower and capability. (72 strike aircraft and fighters on the Nimitz Class vs. 36 strike aircraft on the proposed British CVF). Also, because the Nimitz class is Nuclear powered it is faster, has higher endurance, and has more storage available for fuel, munitions and spare parts. The proposed British CVF, being a fossil fuel carrier, will use a large amount of its storage capability to store fuel for the ships engines, which reduces the amount of space available for the storage of munitions, jet-fuel, weapons and supplies as compared to the Nimitz Class CVN.

HistoricalDavid

You missed one of the key definitions to supercarrier capability, catapults, which enable heavier-laden aircraft to take off.

Stan

well jmh you made a good post there.

thanks.

I would hope however that our carriers are put to see with more than 12 jsf onboard. I was hoping that while it will probably never match its max of 48-50 we would at least see 30 jsf on board as well as helicopters. I guess we will have to wait and see.

still massive improvement on the invincible class.

BenRoethig

Size of a Forrestal? They're 50ft shorter and ten feet narrower at the flight deck than a Midway. A Forrestal has 140ft in length on CVF and is 25ft wider at the flight deck.

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F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

JMH

I did not forget about catapults, I just got tired of typing. I did live onboard an LHD and a CVN for a total of four years. On the LHD I could hear the wheels of the landing Harriers roll along the deck and screeching noise as the harriers came to a stop on the flight deck, which woke me up frequently as I tried to sleep after midwatch. On the CVN I watched flight operations many times both through camera and via eyesight. Flight operations at night are interesting to watch, especially if you stand next to the hooded white stern light on the fantail and watch the F-18's, Hawkeyes, Greyhounds, Prowlers and Vikings approach, they seem like they are headed directly towards you, like they are going to crash into the stern where you are standing and at the last moment they seem to move up and than down onto the flight deck, than you hear hissing steam, the screech of the arrestor gear and the roar of the jets engines-quite fascinating.

HistoricalDavid

You maybe didn't forget them, but you did miss them out, as I said. I'm sure you could have cut the last long-winded sentence, which just repeats the previous one, and simply say, 'the CVFs also have n00b ski-jumps, unsuitable for proper AEW and heavy aircraft.'

Does anyone know about the feasibility of operating the E-2 on the CVFs?

kato

afaik the CV(F) - unlike PA2 - won't be fitted with catapults (but will be able to be refitted?). so, likely no. PA2 would definitely operate E-2.

JMH

Have you ever set foot on a real Aircraft Carrier? The British CVF's are proposed carriers, they DO NOT EXIST. So to claim to know whether or not these PROPOSED CVF's will have catapults is rather foolish. I have seen design plans for the CVF that include catapults and other design plans that do not include catapults. Why don't you tell the MOD what carriers to build with all your experience? All of this is pure speculation because these CVF's may NEVER be built. One thing that is more certain about these PROPOSED CVF's is that they will carry aircraft. The current AEW for the Royal Navy is based on a modified helicopter, so if the PROPOSED CVFs do not have catapults than Royal Navy could just continue using the AEW helicopters that it currently has.

gunnut

Not possible without catapults.

You are correct that CVF don't exist yet. The current CVF design that's ordered doesn't have catapults. However the provision to install them at a later date is built in. This is just to get funding from the socialist government for construction as a "light" carrier first, and then hopefully get funding to modify them into true carriers at a later date.

It's easier to get the hull into water first and then mod them rather than to fight the labour party for funding of true carriers right now.

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HistoricalDavid

No, your point?

I know, which is why I basically agreed with your non-supercarrier assessment by saying they have ski jumps instead.

It seems the tax money is needed as much as whatever experience I have which I cheerfully admit is none.

Which is why I referred to "proper AEW" and its difficulty without catapults. AEW gains altitude to see further over the horizon than a ship's mast at 50 feet. Using a helicopter, which has nowhere near the max altitude of a plane, really thus half-defeats the point of AEW, which is my big concern about the likely lack of catapults on the British CVF, because of its demonstrable importance (e.g. Falklands War.) And no need to get aggressive.

JMH

Tax money is not the problem, the willingness to spend available tax money on new carriers instead of on welfare, EU and financial aid to Africa by the current British Government is the problem.

The CVF design has options to be used as CTOL carrier or Carrier with a ski-jump. Even if the CVF is completed with catapults as CTOL type carrier it still will not be a true super carrier. The capabilities Nimitz Class CVN far outstrip the proposed CVF in any of its possible configurations.

As for AEW, Helicopter born AEW is better than no AEW, besides if the proposed CVF were to operate with an American Strike Group it would be covered by substaintial American AEW assets. It is highly unlikely the Labour government would approve and pay for everything up front: JSF, AEW aircraft, catapults; these will most likely be incremental improvements throughout the service life of the proposed CVF's, if they are built.