gunnut

By all means, bash the EU.

I think you're too kind to the French.

__________________
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

kato

France currently has the largest military in Europe, excluding Ukraine and Russia (and Turkey). By nominal troop strength, even when excluding the Gendarmerie paramilitary police (which would be combatants in wartime), they're slightly above Germany.
And, seriously, they've probably seen the most action of all European militaries except maybe the UK in the last two to three decades. Compared to the rest of Europe, they are a juggernaut.

If you can find a source on that article, i'd be really interested in reading that btw.

PubFather

JMH - sorry to say this but you are clearly an idiot who spends too much time reading rabidly anti-Labour newspapers.

The fate of the remaining 2 Darings is unclear - your speculation on a Saudi sale probably refers to hulls 7 and 8 rather than 5 and 6 (Dragon and Duncan iirc).

All the indications are that CVF will be ordered - it is less certain (and contingent on the Sarkozy/Royal battle) if PA2 is ever ordered. CdG has not proved to be a successful design/vessel and is plagued with problems.

As for your neo-Conservative venom about some socialist unified EU military - not going to happen, certainly not with UK backing. Some moves to rationalisation certainly, more importantly, a genuine commercial effort to challenge the USA's high tech dominance of the defense market.

Ocean will be (longterm) the LPH component of the CVF mix. It's likely that the CVF's will spend a considerable length of time pretending to be a LPH due to airframe numbers and rotation issues. I very much doubt that Lusty will be refitted in the same way that Ark has, should the CVF contracts appear as expected..

Of course, I stand read to eat my hat should the govt do a complete u-turn on CVF

__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit - Scottish Motto

"They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that dislike it, heresy; and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion” Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan

sappersgt

PubFather, nice to have you back!

__________________
Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
(Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

Dectilion

actually, most sources do suggest that the Saudi deal will be hulls 5 and 6, though this is by no means definite. CVF will almost certainly happen, and Illustrious will probably be decommisioned by 2010-2012 at the latest, and Ark Royal by 2015. Ocean will probably be replaced by the end of next decade or the early 2020's, it a cheap unit built to fill gaps (just a slightly modified Invincible class, and costing 1/3 as much as a T-45) I dont see the CVF being used as an LPH, its just a complete waste and inefficient use of a 60,000 ton warship, and their wont really be airframe and rotation issues with the JSF (about 36 per ship, well over 100 are being ordered, you do the math)
And the EU military thing, possible, though highly unlikely in the near future, the UK is simply to Euro-sceptic, any anyways, theirs like 50 languages in the EU, it would be sheer madness trying to run a military force)

gunnut

CVF is not a small ship. At 60,000t she's almost the size of the Forrestal, the first super carrier. I can't wait to see the Royal Navy operate true carriers again.

Is it feasible for the RN to use 1 or 2 LPD-17s to replace the Ocean class? The design is already done and the production will continue until the next decade. Would that make it cheaper?

Dectilion

not really viable, LPD-17 is an amphibious assault ship, not a dedicated helicopter carrier, it can only carry a fraction of the heli's that Ocean can. plus i dont see the UK buying American built ships, Britain has always preferred to make their military equipment

kato

The French Mistral would probably fit the UK requirements - they carry 16 medium/heavy or up to 35 light helos (and it's their primary role), plus retain amphibious capability. Or rather a follow-on product to Mistral by then, DCN would take that contract any day
Though with the way it's been going lately, Schelde should have a good chance with their through-deck version of the Enforcer as well.

BB62squid

I'll see what I can do on that, Kato

__________________
Any international dispute can be resolved through the liberal application of cruise missiles.

Stan

it is nice to have pubfather back.

Dreadnought

Dam, look at Daddy back one moment kicking ass taking names!

__________________
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

glyn

__________________
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

Dreadnought

You dont suppose the Dems got him too do you?

PubFather

At lot of that is supposition - given that "two hulls" are under threat. Logically, this suggests 5+6, however, iirc the funding for 7 & 8 exists. However, as you say, its all very unclear at the moment. I certainly hope its not true..
Accurate details!!
That's the "in theory" part unfortunately. circa 120-132 are likely to be ordered. However, that is designed to replace the entire Harrier force (RN and RAF) as well, it is not ring fenced for the RN. Plus, it is possible that some the number (2* squadrons worth) will replace some the Tornados in the deep strike role.

When you add in attrition replacements/OCU/WEU aircraft - its likely that at typical load will be err, 12 F35... They can surge to a much higher level of course. The other problem is rotation - at some stage the LPH will be in refit/run-up and a CVF will need to step in.

Incidentally, the LHA-6 class will displace about 50,000 tonnes.

ideally, CVF wouldn't be used like this - but we arent in an ideal world. Nor is using the £750 million Invincible (replacement cost) in the £150 million Ocean role... UK defense procurement seldom makes sense.. lol

I agree - its very very unlikely in the near/medium future without a catalyst..

PubFather

We don't really need (in the short-term) anymore LPD's. We have Ocean, Albion and Bulward (LPDs) and the Bay class (4 ships) LSLs (sort of a budget LPD).

Replacing Ocean in 2020, LHA-6 class vessel might be very nice, especially if it offers F35 B capability...