petsan

I keep hearing about Irans small boat suicide fleet, Small boats that put to sea armed with rockets, machine guns and mines showed how Iran would actually fight if rising tensions over its nuclear program should lead to war in the Arabian Gulf. Groups of the boats might swarm around U.S. warships, then withdraw into the cover of islands, haze and shipping, Iran could sortie nearly 400 small, high-speed craft armed with rocket launchers, torpedoes and mines. “In an enclosed, narrow and rather shallow region such as the Persian Gulf, this tactic can be very decisive against large units and can deny the enemy from effective deployment, sea lines of communication and power projection.”In the 2002 Joint Forces Command war game Millennium Challenge, anti-U.S. forces used swarms of small boats and aircraft to rip into a U.S. invasion fleet, sending much of it to the bottom of a shallow sea.

I have seen ideas of countermeasures like JDAMing the iran fleet while still in port, Rockeye bombing the small boats with B-1s, Also the marines did a study in which a LPD-17 launching multiple EFVs and RHIBs from its well deck has turned out to be the best FAC killer option for the US Navy during wargames. There is a story about a LPD-17 used in a small boat attack simulation in the Strait of Malacca. The pirate force player was able to close the range of over 40 small boats to within 2 miles before being detected
as a threat. The LPD-17 released all 14 EFVs into the water, and lined them up between the LPD-17 and the FAC force. For people not familiar with what the EFV can do, the 30mm cannon the EFV is basically the same Mk44 that is being refitted to the AC-130U gunship, and has armor piercing rounds that will go through 25mm of steel at 2,000 meters range. The EFV line supported by the LPD-17 and attack helicopters tore the small boat attack to pieces, mostly because the EFVs are very hard to see at night while at sea, and virtually invisible to a FAC radar while at sea.

I was wondering if Nuc submarines could also be used to attack the small boats by launching many 12.75" Mark 54 or 12.75" Mark 46 torpedos (The Mark 46 torpedo Mod 5 is extensively modified and has the capability of attacking surface targets) from shallow water the swarm of lightweight torpedoes would seem to come out of nowhere. Theoretically a 26" diameter tube (with some kind of sleeve) launch 4 or even 8 at a time

Any thoughts.......

gunnut

Did you know the new Phalanx CIWS has a "manual" mode? They are fitted with infrared and video camaras so the mount can be aimed manually from CIC. Guess what this addition was meant for?

Besides, our big ships won't enter the gulf. Too shallow. Burkes have plenty of room to manuever in the gulf. They are fast too at 30+ knots. I doubt small boats can catch a Burke if the Burke decides to run.

Those small boats are very vulnerable to carrier planes as they don't carry anti-air weapons other than some machine guns and manpads. If Mavericks can hit a moving truck, they can hit a moving boat.

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Gun Grape

Well theres your problem. The MC and gen VanRipers little hissyfit.

He took advantage of a system/program design, went against the rules.

As the program was set up, the game ignored "Small boats" as possible targets. They were outside the scope and purpose of the game.

Gen Van Riper converted some to missile ships, (Not part of the game and against the rules) fired on the fleet, that by game design had no defence against boats. Then he went to the public and complained that he had won and the DoD had changed the game.

MC was a computer game that was designed to test specific parts of then current/future op plans and systems. It wasn't a force on force, all systems simulated free play exercise.

I have seen ideas of countermeasures like JDAMing the iran fleet while still in port, Rockeye bombing the small boats with B-1s, Also the marines did a study in which a LPD-17 launching multiple EFVs and RHIBs from its well deck has turned out to be the best FAC killer option for the US Navy during wargames. There is a story about a LPD-17 used in a small boat attack simulation in the Strait of Malacca. The pirate force player was able to close the range of over 40 small boats to within 2 miles before being detected
as a threat. The LPD-17 released all 14 EFVs into the water, and lined them up between the LPD-17 and the FAC force. For people not familiar with what the EFV can do, the 30mm cannon the EFV is basically the same Mk44 that is being refitted to the AC-130U gunship, and has armor piercing rounds that will go through 25mm of steel at 2,000 meters range. The EFV line supported by the LPD-17 and attack helicopters tore the small boat attack to pieces, mostly because the EFVs are very hard to see at night while at sea, and virtually invisible to a FAC radar while at sea.

I was wondering if Nuc submarines could also be used to attack the small boats by launching many 12.75" Mark 54 or 12.75" Mark 46 torpedos (The Mark 46 torpedo Mod 5 is extensively modified and has the capability of attacking surface targets) from shallow water the swarm of lightweight torpedoes would seem to come out of nowhere. Theoretically a 26" diameter tube (with some kind of sleeve) launch 4 or even 8 at a time

Any thoughts.......[/quote]

Dreadnought

IMO The WWII era PT's would be an excellent choice as too oppose these small crafts. The PT's were light,very fast, very agile and as well armed to the teeth.

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Galrahn

Ya, but made of wood.

i personally wouldn't match small boats vs small boats unless necessary. I don't believe in fair fights. Seems to me some AH-1s supported by some A-10s would solve any large squadron of small boats pretty easily.

Dreadnought

Made of wood....yes
Easy to manufacture/transport. Easy to repair.
Capable of 40 knots/ Very agile
Functionality Guns,Torps and Depth charge if necessary.
Twin diesels great range.

An A-10 would probably stall chasing something comparitively slower then itself in this mode. Unless ofcaoarse diving at it instead of level flight.

If made of wood a concern then consider PT109 being cut in half by a japanese destroyer and still the wreckage held together long enough for the crew to escape. Durability...PT109 was found not long ago with her numbers very recognizable even after sittin on the bottom some 67 years later...And yes Wood.

PT-617 is an Elco class PT Boat. PT-617's specs are:

Length: 77 feet
Beam: 19 feet 11inches
Draught: 4 feet
Crew: 2 officers and 9 crewmen
Displacement: 35 tons
Max Speed: 41kts (46mph)
Fuel Capacity: 3,000 100 octane avgas
Range: 358 miles at 35kts, 1050 miles on one engine, 11 knots
Oil Capacity: 30 gallons
Armament:
4 21" Torpedoes
Up to 8 Mark 6 300 pound Depth Charges
1 37mm Deck Gun
1 40mm Bofors AA mount aft
4 50 cal. Browning Machine Guns
Hull Construction: Double planked Mahogany (NOT plywood)
Power Plant: 3 1,200 hp Packard Merlin V-12 engines driving 3 propellers and 3 rudders
Launching Date: September 21, 1945

Hows that for a "surprise" boat deterant.

TopHatter

What so bad about them being made from wood?

Dreadnought

On another note consider the fact that Germany's biggest and badest raider the Bizmark was fataly wounded by an airplane made much out of material like the very socks you are wearing now (a stringbag) and not being much faster then a seagull flies.

gunnut

Why fight fast with fast and small with small? Think unconventionally. We have complete air supremacy. Send in some AC-130s. Those boats won't even know they're being targetted. As slow as the old cargo plane is, it's still much faster than the fastest boat. Long loiter time with night fighting capability means they don't even have a chance at night. JSTAR can make sure nothing moves in the region without being noticed.

Just some musing at the office...

Dreadnought

Hey I would go for a "Spectre" or a "Spooky"

JCT

But it would only take one manpad to ruin their day. AC-130s do not often come out during the day, limiting their use somewhat.

gunnut

I thought AC-130 flies above the normal engagement envelope of manpad.

braindead

But the small boats are coming suddenly - surprise attack is the whole point of it. Air supremacy or not , if the A-10/AC-130 are ´100 miles away , the whole thing could be over by the time they get there.
BTW. - how about some FAE-type of weapon for deterrant of the small boats?

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Bluesman

Well, first of all, it's no 'surprise', as inferred by the title. We've known that this force and this tactic existed for a very long time.

Frankly, I'm just not convinced that a whole bunch of small and lightly-armed boats could close the range to do a helluva lot to a US combatant. If it looked like they were about to be swarmed, LONG before the leading edge of the Iranian flotilla closed to effective range, the US ship could be calling for help and running and gunning. If pursued, drag 'em all into the WEZs of our other ships. If they do not pursue, we win, and we can hang onto the edge of their WEZ - which will be well inside our effective range - and pick 'em apart.

Not impressed by this force or their tactics.

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FOG3

Didn't we basically pwn these things with AH-6 and OH-58s a few decades back, when they were preying on merchants or some such in the Gulf? Speeds boats with RPGs wasn't it?