Iran's Small Boat Surprise - Page 2

JCT · 04-03-2007, 19:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

I thought AC-130 flies above the normal engagement envelope of manpad.

Here is a good discussion on the AC-130 operating envelope:
TROOPS IN FALLUJAH LOST BID FOR DAYTIME AC-130 GUNSHIP FIRE SUPPORT by Elaine M. Grossman

In short, they say that the AC-130 operates well within the envelop of certain manpads and does not operate during daylight hours, except for emergencies.

B.Smitty · 04-03-2007, 21:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Well, first of all, it's no 'surprise', as inferred by the title. We've known that this force and this tactic existed for a very long time.

Frankly, I'm just not convinced that a whole bunch of small and lightly-armed boats could close the range to do a helluva lot to a US combatant. If it looked like they were about to be swarmed, LONG before the leading edge of the Iranian flotilla closed to effective range, the US ship could be calling for help and running and gunning. If pursued, drag 'em all into the WEZs of our other ships. If they do not pursue, we win, and we can hang onto the edge of their WEZ - which will be well inside our effective range - and pick 'em apart.

It's more of a problem when the distances are short to begin with and when they're intermingled with regular shipping.

Think USS Cole executed simultaneously on a number of warships.

Bluesman · 04-03-2007, 23:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.Smitty

It's more of a problem when the distances are short to begin with and when they're intermingled with regular shipping.

Think USS Cole executed simultaneously on a number of warships.

USS Cole wasn't underway and manuevering. She was a sitting duck, and not in any way prepared. Not at General Quarters, slack security, and permitting a potential threat to come into actual contact.

I see the point you're making, but it would simply be inconceivable in this day to imagine any circumstance whatsoever that a US warship could be approached AT ALL, even singly, by any craft displaying a known threat profile, and as for a flotilla making for her? NO WAY.

Unless every sensor was down and the Officer of the Deck was heads-down while working his sodoku while the skipper was asleep during close passage to an enemy coastline, I simply don't see EVER having to worry about small-craft attacks, whether singly, massed, or dropped from Heaven.

Galrahn · 04-04-2007, 00:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopHatter

What so bad about them being made from wood?

Nothing was wrong with the PT boats made of wood in WWII, but wood doesn't work today.

I have had this discussion once with a shipbuilder, and at the time I was advocating wood, but my mind was changed. The most compelling reason is pretty simple to sum up.

Ever put a computer on board a wood boat? It is almost impossible to control the humidity at sea on a wooden boat, particularly in certain climates, and in the end the electronic systems become unreliable at best.

Even the best treated modern wood boats have this problem. Navy ships today are basically floating computers, making the wood option very undesirable.

**TopHatter** · 04-04-2007, 00:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galrahn

Ever put a computer on board a wood boat? It is almost impossible to control the humidity at sea on a wooden boat, particularly in certain climates, and in the end the electronic systems become unreliable at best.

Ahhh...nope, didn't even think of that.

How about this...fiberglass-sheathed wooden hull, like the Avenger-class MCM's?

urmomma158 · 04-05-2007, 17:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Well theres your problem. The MC and gen VanRipers little hissyfit.

He took advantage of a system/program design, went against the rules.

As the program was set up, the game ignored "Small boats" as possible targets. They were outside the scope and purpose of the game.

Gen Van Riper converted some to missile ships, (Not part of the game and against the rules) fired on the fleet, that by game design had no defence against boats. Then he went to the public and complained that he had won and the DoD had changed the game.

MC was a computer game that was designed to test specific parts of then current/future op plans and systems. It wasn't a force on force, all systems simulated free play exercise.

I have seen ideas of countermeasures like JDAMing the iran fleet while still in port, Rockeye bombing the small boats with B-1s, Also the marines did a study in which a LPD-17 launching multiple EFVs and RHIBs from its well deck has turned out to be the best FAC killer option for the US Navy during wargames. There is a story about a LPD-17 used in a small boat attack simulation in the Strait of Malacca. The pirate force player was able to close the range of over 40 small boats to within 2 miles before being detected
as a threat. The LPD-17 released all 14 EFVs into the water, and lined them up between the LPD-17 and the FAC force. For people not familiar with what the EFV can do, the 30mm cannon the EFV is basically the same Mk44 that is being refitted to the AC-130U gunship, and has armor piercing rounds that will go through 25mm of steel at 2,000 meters range. The EFV line supported by the LPD-17 and attack helicopters tore the small boat attack to pieces, mostly because the EFVs are very hard to see at night while at sea, and virtually invisible to a FAC radar while at sea.

I was wondering if Nuc submarines could also be used to attack the small boats by launching many 12.75" Mark 54 or 12.75" Mark 46 torpedos (The Mark 46 torpedo Mod 5 is extensively modified and has the capability of attacking surface targets) from shallow water the swarm of lightweight torpedoes would seem to come out of nowhere. Theoretically a 26" diameter tube (with some kind of sleeve) launch 4 or even 8 at a time

Any thoughts.......

[/quote]

You have any link for that EFV/LPD report? Im interested thnx.

Wraith601 · 04-08-2007, 00:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petsan

I keep hearing about Irans small boat suicide fleet, Small boats that put to sea armed with rockets, machine guns and mines showed how Iran would actually fight if rising tensions over its nuclear program should lead to war in the Arabian Gulf. Groups of the boats might swarm around U.S. warships, then withdraw into the cover of islands, haze and shipping, Iran could sortie nearly 400 small, high-speed craft armed with rocket launchers, torpedoes and mines. “In an enclosed, narrow and rather shallow region such as the Persian Gulf, this tactic can be very decisive against large units and can deny the enemy from effective deployment, sea lines of communication and power projection.”In the 2002 Joint Forces Command war game Millennium Challenge, anti-U.S. forces used swarms of small boats and aircraft to rip into a U.S. invasion fleet, sending much of it to the bottom of a shallow sea.

I have seen ideas of countermeasures like JDAMing the iran fleet while still in port, Rockeye bombing the small boats with B-1s, Also the marines did a study in which a LPD-17 launching multiple EFVs and RHIBs from its well deck has turned out to be the best FAC killer option for the US Navy during wargames. There is a story about a LPD-17 used in a small boat attack simulation in the Strait of Malacca. The pirate force player was able to close the range of over 40 small boats to within 2 miles before being detected
as a threat. The LPD-17 released all 14 EFVs into the water, and lined them up between the LPD-17 and the FAC force. For people not familiar with what the EFV can do, the 30mm cannon the EFV is basically the same Mk44 that is being refitted to the AC-130U gunship, and has armor piercing rounds that will go through 25mm of steel at 2,000 meters range. The EFV line supported by the LPD-17 and attack helicopters tore the small boat attack to pieces, mostly because the EFVs are very hard to see at night while at sea, and virtually invisible to a FAC radar while at sea.

I was wondering if Nuc submarines could also be used to attack the small boats by launching many 12.75" Mark 54 or 12.75" Mark 46 torpedos (The Mark 46 torpedo Mod 5 is extensively modified and has the capability of attacking surface targets) from shallow water the swarm of lightweight torpedoes would seem to come out of nowhere. Theoretically a 26" diameter tube (with some kind of sleeve) launch 4 or even 8 at a time

Any thoughts.......

Only problem with the EFV tactic is that EFV isn't in service and won't be for a couple more years at the soonest. I suppose the AAV could do the same thing but it's slower and only has a MK 19/.50 cal combo, not as effective as a 30mm autocannon. Too bad I'd love to see Predator footage of that fight though.

Anyway, Iranian small boats have a lot of worry about.

First, fixed wing air. Air strikes against their port facilities, aerial mining of their harbors, Maverick strikes, AC-130 and A-10 gun runs.

Second, attack helos. Marine AH-1s operating of amphibs or any surface ship really would eat small boats for breakfast. Even a SH-60 can carry door guns and Penguin ASMs to kill boats.

Third, the ships themselves. 127mm and 76mm guns on the surface combatants would be devastaing. Throw in the RAM and Phalanx in ASuW mode and the Bushmasters and M2s most ships carry these days and US surface ships are veritable fortresses.

Finally, in a few years time we can use the EFV wall defense, armed UAVs, and maybe even remote controlled small boats of our own.

Anyone know well the old Pegasus class hydrofoils would have stacked up against these Iranian boats?

gunnut · 04-08-2007, 17:04 PM

There's an anti surface mode for the RAM?

Wraith601 · 04-09-2007, 00:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

There's an anti surface mode for the RAM?

According to Wikipedia.

Quote:

In 1998 a memorandum of understanding was signed by Germany and the United States to improve the system, so that it could also engage Helicopters, Aircraft and Surface targets. The developed HAS upgrade is a mere software modification that can be applied to all Block 1 RAM missiles

Stan · 04-18-2007, 11:02 AM

I was looking over the Fleet today and I really wish the navy would invest in a few more Castle class patrol ships. One of these would have been perfect for the role hms cornwall was carrying out.

kato · 04-18-2007, 18:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wraith601

According to Wikipedia.

HAS (RAM Block 2) isn't developed yet. There's only a MoU to develop it. Problem is that the cooperation on it has been problematic, with the USN pushing its own RAM P³I concept, also involving a new booster and new canards in addition to the seeker/software upgrades. Germany is considering withdrawing from that development (and its costs), and buying it off-the-shelf from 2010 on. Raytheon has started development in 2005/06, first flight tests are planned for 2008, deployment from 2011 on.

omon · 04-18-2007, 19:29 PM

somehow, i have no doubts us can take care of these boats. whatever they made of.

Big K · 04-20-2007, 04:49 AM

these little boats...dont they have any stingerlike systems?

isnt it a threat for aircrafts?

JungleMike · 04-20-2007, 09:19 AM

Any thoughts on the idea that we just might do a little mining of our own? Only in case of a shooting situation of course and not to block the gulf or anything like that. It just occured to me that if a few of these pesky boats started blowing up shortly after leaving shore, then we would see who the true martyrs are! I wouldn't advocate using anything hi-tech and expensive, but surely we have something old we could use?

Wraith601 · 04-21-2007, 21:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big K

these little boats...dont they have any stingerlike systems?

isnt it a threat for aircrafts?

MANPADS are certainly a threat to helos or low, slow flying planes. But they aren't too effective against strike aircraft like the F-18 or F-16 and even less so against the F-22 or F-35.

04-08-2007, 17:04 PM	#23 (permalink)
gunnut *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-27-06 Location: DPRK, Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 9,381 Country:	There's an anti surface mode for the RAM? __________________ "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

04-20-2007, 04:49 AM	#28 (permalink)
Big K HürGeneral *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-11-06 Location: Istanbul Posts: 1,046 Country:	these little boats...dont they have any stingerlike systems? isnt it a threat for aircrafts? __________________ When i say, there will be no effect but i am not willing to remain silent. -Fuzuli

04-20-2007, 09:19 AM	#29 (permalink)
JungleMike New Member Join Date: 03-23-07 Location: Midland, Texas Posts: 20 Country:	Any thoughts on the idea that we just might do a little mining of our own? Only in case of a shooting situation of course and not to block the gulf or anything like that. It just occured to me that if a few of these pesky boats started blowing up shortly after leaving shore, then we would see who the true martyrs are! I wouldn't advocate using anything hi-tech and expensive, but surely we have something old we could use? Last edited by JungleMike : 04-20-2007 at 09:20 AM. Reason: misspell

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04-18-2007, 11:02 AM	#25 (permalink)
Stan Contributor Join Date: 07-11-06 Posts: 375 Country:	I was looking over the Fleet today and I really wish the navy would invest in a few more Castle class patrol ships. One of these would have been perfect for the role hms cornwall was carrying out.

04-18-2007, 19:29 PM	#27 (permalink)
omon Field mechanik *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-01-06 Location: bk Posts: 1,925 Country:	somehow, i have no doubts us can take care of these boats. whatever they made of.

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