India acquring Nuclear Submarine - Page 2

Samudra · 11-06-2004, 00:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I don't think so. It's going to be a rebuilt sub and no one knows the full state of those subs until they got it out and try it out and that's going to be at least 3 years from the day of the InN takes delivery. There will be glitches. Some minor. Some very major - that's just the way subs are.

And there's another thing, a very unwanted but somewhat necessary initiation into the submarine force club. If you have not lost a crew, you're not consider a submarine power. Most submarine peacetime losses are because of stupid mistakes and there is a tendency to assume "I'm not that stupid" attitude. The sad truth is "yes, you are" and when you make that mistake, submarines are very unforgiving.

It is only when you adopt the "yes, I am stupid" attitude that you start to begin to become a submarine force. You check, double check, and tripple check your actions. Very unfortunately, this lesson can only be learned when you lose a sub and its crew.

Sir
In a way , you are right.Accidents are needed for perfecting things.
Somehow i guess you forsee an accident in the IN , and it shivers me timbers

I am not informed enough about the criteria to become a submarine power , but i am confident the IN knows it has to know that it is stupid,going by your theory.

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-06-2004, 00:56 AM

Ask the Chinese about their MING. Or the Russians about the KURSK.

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-06-2004, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

well i understand that once we make a mistake we are extra careful and dont make it again.But clearly there can be instances where people learn without making mistakes first. If otehrs loose a sub & crew before learning how to get their act right it dsnt mean that indians will also learn this hard way. Theres always an option that they learn from others mistakes

Exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Aside from the MING and the KURSK, take a look at what happenned to HMCS CHICOUTIMI. If long time submariners keep making this mistake, what makes you think Indians are anymore immune?

ajaybhutani · 11-06-2004, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Aside from the MING and the KURSK, take a look at what happenned to HMCS CHICOUTIMI. If long time submariners keep making this mistake, what makes you think Indians are anymore immune?

i m not intending to say that indians are immune but yes theres an old saying:
There are three kinds of people in this world the first set makes mistakes again and again. the second set makes a mistake once and learns from it and dsnt repeat it . The third set sees others making a mistakes and learns from them and thus stands the best chance of not making mistakes.

In the same way i expect /hope that indian Navy learns from all the accidents that have happened in the past in other navies instead of itself loosing a sub and them getting its senses back. all ui want to say is that theres always a chance that indians might learn from others mistakes in this regard ,aybe just a 10% chance.Well the point is i m acting like a optimist that they might learn without mistakes while u are going by ur experience that they will make a mistake before learning . I geuss only time will tell wether my optimism was justified or not .

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-06-2004, 09:26 AM

We're not talking individuals here. We're talking entire crews. All it takes is one person who thinks "I cannot be that stupid." That's what happenned on the MING.

ajaybhutani · 11-06-2004, 11:08 AM

i agree with that ..but i woudl say that in a way u sound like u are expecting an accident in IN and taht too a big one. Frankly most miskates might force the sub to come up the surface etc.. frankly there are so many mistakes one can learn from which donot include loosing the sub ..

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-06-2004, 13:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

but i woudl say that in a way u sound like u are expecting an accident in IN and taht too a big one.

I do and I cannot see how it can be avoided. The InN is adopting a very ambitious posture which translate into a very aggressive submarine program. The Indians also have a reputation of pushing men and machine to their limits and at times beyond. Those points combined with the history of submarine operations across the globe is stating not if but when is India going to have a big submarine disaster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

Frankly most miskates might force the sub to come up the surface etc.. frankly there are so many mistakes one can learn from which donot include loosing the sub ..

And you will make plenty of those but you're missing the point. It has not hit home that sub ops are not dangerous, they're lethal. Until that point hits home ... and it cannot hit home when it happens to others because it ain't your home that it happenned to, you're not considered a true sub force.

Samudra · 11-06-2004, 13:43 PM

Sir
I agree.Indians are not any better humans than others.
There is always room for mistakes.You comment was misread that you implied to say everything Russian was all junk. As you said lets Salute those brave !
(but the sub wont be THAT bad eh ? )

Franco Lolan · 11-06-2004, 13:58 PM

subs will be great. sure, they might be a little used, but the Indians won't buy complete junk. any nuclear sub will help the indian navy dev its own.

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-06-2004, 18:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamudraGupta

You comment was misread that you implied to say everything Russian was all junk. As you said lets Salute those brave !
(but the sub wont be THAT bad eh ? )

You will find that I am not one of those who gets into a pissing contest about which weapon is better than the other. As far as I am concern, just get it into the hands of the people who will have to use the things. They'll figure out what to do ... and what not to do. My point has always been, okay, this may not be the best weapon on earth but is it good enough? If it is, then treat it with the respect that it deserves. If it isn't, ... well, soldiers have been known to lose things.

Is it a bad sub? I don't think so. However, that does not mean that it's going to be smooth sailing for the InN. On the contrary, there would be so much frustration times when the InN would question why the hell did they sign to get this thing. That's just the way breaking in new subs (or refurbished subs) works.

Ray · 11-08-2004, 08:59 AM

Colonel,

We have already used one Russian nuke sub.

My naval friends did not complain.

There is no doubt that a US sub would have better crew comfort and safety, but then when one does not produce nuke subs or any subs, one must accept what one can buy.

It is true that Indian are driven hard and to the limit, but I wonder if we have done to badly.

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-08-2004, 10:44 AM

Sir,

As I said before when you're buying off the shelf, you're paying for someone else to go through the acceptance pain.

No, Sir, the InN has not done too badly and is an extremely fine blue water navy ... but it has not hit home just how lethal sub ops are. I pray that day will never come ... but I'm expecting it. It has happenned to every navy when they started getting aggressive in sub ops, I don't see how that would be different with India.

ajaybhutani · 11-08-2004, 10:57 AM

Considering that its a leased sub wont the indians be extra careful wether we stretch the man & machine to the limit or not . as we have to return this thing back.Certainly they wouldnt be wanting to stretch the machine to the limit.

**Officer of Engineers** · 11-08-2004, 11:24 AM

You mean playing it safe and not do the dangerous things. Can't see it.

11-06-2004, 00:56 AM	#17 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,918 Country:	Ask the Chinese about their MING. Or the Russians about the KURSK. __________________ Chimo

11-08-2004, 08:59 AM	#26 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,149 Country:	Colonel, We have already used one Russian nuke sub. My naval friends did not complain. There is no doubt that a US sub would have better crew comfort and safety, but then when one does not produce nuke subs or any subs, one must accept what one can buy. It is true that Indian are driven hard and to the limit, but I wonder if we have done to badly. __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA Last edited by Ray : 11-08-2004 at 09:02 AM.

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11-06-2004, 09:26 AM	#20 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,918 Country:	We're not talking individuals here. We're talking entire crews. All it takes is one person who thinks "I cannot be that stupid." That's what happenned on the MING.

11-06-2004, 11:08 AM	#21 (permalink)
ajaybhutani *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-05-04 Posts: 2,100	i agree with that ..but i woudl say that in a way u sound like u are expecting an accident in IN and taht too a big one. Frankly most miskates might force the sub to come up the surface etc.. frankly there are so many mistakes one can learn from which donot include loosing the sub ..

11-06-2004, 13:43 PM	#23 (permalink)
Samudra *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-01-04 Location: North London Posts: 4,311 Country:	Sir I agree.Indians are not any better humans than others. There is always room for mistakes.You comment was misread that you implied to say everything Russian was all junk. As you said lets Salute those brave ! (but the sub wont be THAT bad eh ? )

11-06-2004, 13:58 PM	#24 (permalink)
Franco Lolan *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-29-04 Posts: 789	subs will be great. sure, they might be a little used, but the Indians won't buy complete junk. any nuclear sub will help the indian navy dev its own.

11-08-2004, 10:44 AM	#27 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,918 Country:	Sir, As I said before when you're buying off the shelf, you're paying for someone else to go through the acceptance pain. No, Sir, the InN has not done too badly and is an extremely fine blue water navy ... but it has not hit home just how lethal sub ops are. I pray that day will never come ... but I'm expecting it. It has happenned to every navy when they started getting aggressive in sub ops, I don't see how that would be different with India.

11-08-2004, 10:57 AM	#28 (permalink)
ajaybhutani *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-05-04 Posts: 2,100	Considering that its a leased sub wont the indians be extra careful wether we stretch the man & machine to the limit or not . as we have to return this thing back.Certainly they wouldnt be wanting to stretch the machine to the limit.

11-08-2004, 11:24 AM	#29 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,918 Country:	You mean playing it safe and not do the dangerous things. Can't see it.

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