rickusn

There has been some discussion of this of late.

(Tier 1)

USN

(Tier 2)

UK ( three carriers, adequate surface combatants, SSNs, SSBNs and good amphibious, logistics and mine warfare ships)(could move down if downsizing continues and new ship/aircraft construction doesnt come to fruition)
France(one carrier)( otherwise same as above but modernization plans mostly well in hand)
Russia(one carrier)( otherwise same as above but financial constraints pose serious risks to the Russian Fleet)(Submarine fleet remains ace in the hole)

(Tier 3)

Japan(no carriers, SSNs, SSBNs but excellent modern forces otherwise in relatively large #s)(Would move up with carriers, SSNs/SSBNs thes are not beyond their means but taboo politically and socially)
India(two carriers but older)(Could move up if Fleet modernization plans move forward in a timely manner)(no SSNs or SSBNs)
China(no carriers)( otherwise same as above as relates to modernization)(have SSNs and one SSBN)

(Tier 4)(All have a small carrier, Italy two, one is under construction)(well balanced fleets)

Italy(excellent all around forces)(lack #s and SSNs/SSBNs)(modernizing)
Spain(same as above)
Brazil(only reason here is they have a carrier w/o it would move down to Tier 5B)

(Tier 5A)(For the most part very modern ships and balanced fleets)

The Netherlands(lack #s, carriers, SSNs, SSBNs but forces are very modern)
Germany(same as above)
Austailia(same as above but once again modernization plans must move forward)
Canada(same as above but lack modernization plans and funding)
S. Korea(same as above and are in the midst of modernization)

(Tier 5B)(These countries have same limitations as above plus their ships are a mix of older and newer but in some cases less capable ships than above although Taiwan and Turkey have many more surface combatants #s wise)

Taiwan
Turkey
Greece

Tiers 6A, 6B, 6C are navies in flux. But I thought some type of breakdown was necessary. 6A navies are on the cutting edge of technology but #s are closer to 6C which are modern compared to 6B in general.(Notable exception is Pakistan and Chiles new build SSKs.)

(Tier 6A)(These countries are modernizing but have ships in far fewer #s than above, SSK are modern )

Sweden
Norway
Denmark(no SSKs but building modern surface combatants may acquire modern SSKs)
S.Africa

(Tier 6B)(These countries have older ships although especially in the case of Pakistan have good SSKs)(Have generally a couple more vessels than above.)

Chile
Pakistan
Peru
Venezuela
Indonesia


(Tier 6C)(few ships mostly quite modern except Thailand but they do have a small carrier)(are not far behind the above navies and in somes areas superior)

Thailand(no SSKs)
Argentina(vessels are newer than in Tier 6B but has similar #s although many are much smaller than those above)
Iran(lack adequate surface combatants)
Singapore(ex-Swedish SSKs)(building six new modern frigates)
Malaysia(buying SSKs)
Saudi Arabia(no SSKs but very modern surface combatants)
Israel(lack adequate surface combatants)
Portugal
Colombia
Egypt(A real mixed bag. Like Argentina it could easily be in 6B as here)


(Tier 7)(A mixed bag of older and in some cases modern ships most have no SSks )(even fewer in #s than above)


New Zealand
Bahrain
UAE
Poland
Romania
Ukraine
Mexico
Algeria
Libya
Ecuador
Bangladesh
Morrocco
Bulgaria
Oman
Algeria
Bulgaria
Uruquay


Thats the USN and the next 53. Did I leave anyone out? Do I have them in the right category?

Edited with some commentary.

Some navies are difficult to pigeon hole. Its a challenge to assess and ascertain relative combat values. #s, mixes , ages, maintenance, upgrades, capablities and sizes of platforms along with personnel training and experience which of course are all subject to budget constraints all enter in. Much subjectiveness to weigh and then come up with a reasonably objective measure.

Am willing to answer specific questions in addition to general ones..

ajaybhutani

seems u did the rankings urself ..
so it would be nice if u could give us all some one line descriptions about each of th countries u have classified and why u placed them at that position . it would be easier for us to start from ur analysis rather than doing all the analysis from scratch

btw nice job.. must have taken a lot of time ..

rickusn

No not really. Most of it is pretty staight forward. I left off an analysis on purpose.

But Ill edit it as I have time.

HOKUM

I disagree with your putting the UK in tier 2, our navy is little changed since the falklands, only some vls sea wolf's and addition of ciws. Its principle SAM, the sea dart is obsolete and without modern air to air missiles its naval aviation is also outdated. subs are good though. its surface fleet cannot be compared to russia or france (who have a new carrier and their cassard and la fayette boats which were launched in the 90s)

In 10 years time with the type 45s and new carriers, the royal navy will be No 2 to USN, but I think at the moment the russians hold that position with france trailing in 3rd, despite their problems the ruskies still have highly capable AAW, ASW and ASUW from their 40 odd crusiers, destroyers and frigates, over 50 modern subs and a fairly decent aircraft carrier which would all be fielded with increased wartime funding

rickusn

I put all three(UK, France, Russia) in tier two in no particular order(same with the other tiers).

All these navies have limitations and their own peculiar set of challenges facing them.

The Russian fleet is hard pressed financially. As for surface combatants they have about 35(1-2 Kirov, 3 Slava, 4-9 Sovremmeny(sources conflict), 9(Udaloy including the one II), 0-8 Krivak(last I heard they were all to be decommissioned by 2005), 0-2 Kashin(last I heard they were non-operational, 1 Neustrashimy, 1 Gepard(Caspian sea) with as few as 19 operational. Divided between four (Northern, Pacific,Baltic Sea, Black Sea) non-supporting or ever will be mutually supportable fleets.

As I edited my original post you make a good point about their submarine fleet but I think your #s are quite optimistic. Because again how many are actually operational is debatable.

The Cassards have recycled SAM systems, lack adequate organic ASW weapons/sensors, only have one liason helo. These are not first-rate ships. Id take a type 42 over them any day.

Lafayetes have no ASW capability at all. Again Id take a Type 23 Frigate over them any day. BTW the Type 23s are mostly no older than the La Fayettes albeit not as stealthy. But certainly more capable.

Both in #s and capability the UK wins hands down when it comes to surface combatants.

Same with the SSNs.

But if the UKs modernization plans fall apart and/or downsizing continues they could fall quite far in the rankings. France and Russia especially have similar challenges. Of course for other navies to move up depends on their modernization plans and increasing fleet #s.

This is a fluid and dynamic issue we are dealing with.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I also havent discussed other variables like training etc.

rickusn

Here are some updates:

Tier 5B)(These countries have same limitations as above plus their ships are a mix of older and newer but in some cases less capable ships than above although Taiwan and Turkey have many more surface combatants #s wise)

Taiwan

(soon 4 ex- Kidd class DDG(replacing 7 ex-US WWII vintage DD), 8 OHP design Frigates, 6 Lafayette design Frigates w/ sonar unlike the French units, 8 ex-US Knox class Frigates)

(2 SSK but are trying to buy 8 modern ones)

Turkey

(8 ex-US OHP Frigates, 8 MEKO 200 Frigates, 5 ex-US Knox Frigates)

(12 SSKwith two building)

Greece( 1 ex-US DDG, 4 MEKO 200 Frigates, 10 ex-Netherlands Frigate)

(8 SSK building four new ones)

Tiers 6A, 6B, 6C are navies in flux. But I thought some type of breakdown was necessary. 6A navies are on the cutting edge of technology but #s are closer to 6C which are modern compared to 6B in general.(Notable exception is Pakistan and Chiles new build SSKs.)

(Tier 6A)(These countries are modernizing but have ships in far fewer #s than above, SSK are modern )

Sweden

(4 SSKs, 5 Visby Stealth Corvettes)

Norway

(6 SSK, Buying 5 new Frigates)

Denmark

(Building 4 new frigates, 2 Flexible Support ships a cross between a frigate and an amphibious ship)

(Have had SSKs until recently)


S.Africa

(buying 3 new SSK, 4 new Frigates)

(Tier 6B)(These countries have older ships although especially in the case of Pakistan have good SSKs)(Have generally a couple more vessels than above.)

Chile

(Replacing current fleet(4 ex-UK DDG and 4 ex-UK Frigates) with up to 3 ex UK Frigates w/ one already in service plus 4 ex-Netherlands Frigates)

(4 SSK)

Pakistan

(7 ex-UK Frigates)

(8 SSK w/ one building)

Peru

( 1 ex-Netherlands Cruiser, 4 Lupo class Frigates were to get four ex-Italian Lupo Frigates but apparently this wont happen)

(6 SSK)

Venezuela

(6 Lupo class Frigates)

(2 SSK)

Indonesia

(6 ex-Netherland frigates)

(2 SSK)

Franco Lolan

Japan in front of PRC?

rickusn

Let me again reiterate. The navies in each tier are in no particular order.

Having said that again IMHO a good case could be made that Japan has far more combat capability than the PLAN. Which I will in good time. But the PLAN is making strides.

I would be most interested in why you think the PLAN should be rated better than the JSMDF.

rickusn

(Tier 3)

Japan(no carriers, SSNs, SSBNs but excellent modern forces otherwise in relatively large #s)(Would move up with carriers, SSNs/SSBNs these are not beyond their means but taboo politically and socially)

0 +4 Building four new 17000fl helicopter carriers could easily operate VSTOL aircraft. They are quite controversial.

4 DDH(To be replaced by the above)
4+2 US-design A Burke AEGIS DDG 9500fl
5 SM-1 DDG4800-5600fl

The following classed by Japan as DD are more akin to multi-purpose Frigates although the MK41 VLS equipped are extremely capable the four newest carry SM-2 controlled by a so-called mini-AEGIS:

4+4 MK41VLS(32) Takinami 5300fl
9 MK 41(16) and Mk 48 VLS Murasame5100fl
8 Asagari4300fl
11 Hatsuyuki 3700fl

9 small frigates of little combat value although modern

18 modern SSK could have up to 30(building one per year) but are retiring units with only 20 years of service to save manning/operating costs.


India(two carriers but older)(Could move up if Fleet modernization plans move forward in a timely manner)(no SSNs or SSBNs)

DDG

0+3 Aster SAM 6900
3 Project 15 SAN 7 6700
5 Russian-design Kashin SAN 1 4900fl

FFG

0+12 Project 17 SAN 7 5400fl
3+3 Russian-Krivak SAN 7 4,000fl

FF(multi-purpose frigates)

2+1 Project 16A 4500fl
3 Project 16 4300fl
4 UK Leander 3000fl

8 small frigates

SSK

6 German type 209
10 Russian- built Kilo
2 Russian -built Foxtrot(obsolete)


China(no carriers)( otherwise same as above as relates modernization)

DDGs

0+2 O52C AEGIS-Type
0+2 O52B SAN 7
2 +2 Russian- Built Sovremmenyy SAN 7

DD(although armed more like multi-purpose frigates)

1 Luhai 6600fl
2 Luhu 5700fl


The below classified DD but would be classed Frigate by world standards :

16 Luda 7 of which have been modernized to some extent but still pretty much obsolete by world class standards 4000fl

0+4 new large Lafayette-type Frigates 3600fl
12 relatively modern Frigates but smallish 2300 fl

31 small Frigates of little combat value

1 SSBN (no operational missles)

3 SSN ( 5 built not a success the survivors may not be operational)

4 Russian-built Kilo SSK
5 Song SSK
19 Mings based on Russian Romeo design SSK
32 Romeo SSK

All but the Kilos and possibly the Song(some sources say they are a disappointment) have little combat value.

rickusn

This site has the most balanced, in-depth, and current analysis of the PLAN ships Iv e found on the internet.

Combat Fleets and Janes plus other magazine articles by authorative, reliable authors more or less agree.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/default.asp

rickusn

Another update:

Tier 4)(All have a small carrier, Italy two, one is under construction)(Spain is building a large Amphibious Assault Carrier as well)(well balanced fleets)

Italy(excellent all around forces)(lack #s and SSNs/SSBNs)(modernizing)

DDG(the new Horizon AAW ships are being designated as frigates)

0+2 Horizon class ASTER VLS 6700 fl
4 SM-1(two 1973 and two 1993)5400fl&4500fl respectively

FF

8 Mastrale 3200fl
4 Lupo variants(no sonar)2500fl

4 small frigates of little combat value

6 SSK of indigenous design(building two German-design Type 212)

Spain(same as above)

FFG

2+2 AEGIS MK-41 VLS SM-2 5800fl
6 US-design OHP4100fl
3 US-design modified Knox class SM-14200fl

SSK

0+4 French-design Scorpene
4 French-design Agosta
2 French-design Daphne


Brazil(only reason here is they have a carrier w/o it would move down to Tier 5B)

FF

4 ex-UK Broadsword4400fl
6 UK-design3800fl
2 ex-US Garcia3600fl(of little combat value)
4+1 indigenous design2400fl

SSK

4+1 German-design Type 209


(Tier 5A)(For the most part very modern ships and balanced fleets)

The Netherlands(lack #s, carriers, SSNs, SSBNs but forces are very modern)

FFG

3+1 APAR MK-41 VLS SM-2 6000fl
2 SM-1(being sold to Chile)3800fl

FF

8 3200fl(two being sold to Chile)

SSK

4 indigenous design

Germany(same as above)

FFG

2+1 APAR MK-41 VLS SM-2 5700fl

FF

4 4500fl
8 Dutch-design Kortenaer3800fl

SSK

1+3 Type 212
11 type 206(very small coastal type)


Austrailia(same as above but once again modernization plans must move forward)

FFG

6 US-design OHP SM-1 4100fl

FF

6+2 German-design MEKO 200 3600fl

SSK

6 Swedish-design


Canada(same as above but lack modernization plans and funding)

FFG

3 Mk-41 VLS SM-2 5100fl

FF

12 4800fl

SSK

4 ex-UK Upholder class

S. Korea(same as above and are in the midst of modernization)(they are also building two medium size Amphibious Assault Carriers)

FFG

0+3 AEGIS SM-2

2+4 Mk-41 VLS SM-2 5000fl

FF

3 3900fl
9 2200fl

24 small frigates of little combat value

SSK

0+3 German- design Type 214
9 German design Type 209

HOKUM

The Russian fleet is hard pressed financially. As for surface combatants they have about 35(1-2 Kirov, 3 Slava, 4-9 Sovremmeny(sources conflict), 9(Udaloy including the one II), 0-8 Krivak(last I heard they were all to be decommissioned by 2005), 0-2 Kashin(last I heard they were non-operational, 1 Neustrashimy, 1 Gepard(Caspian sea) with as few as 19 operational. Divided between four (Northern, Pacific,Baltic Sea, Black Sea) non-supporting or ever will be mutually supportable fleets.

Yeah you never know how much of the russian fleet is actually at sea, the refits can last indefinitely, however I think they still have a consideable advantage in surface engagements, be it against antiship missle armed aircraft or an enemy surface fleet.

20 years ago, during the falklands war, the british ships were easy prey, 4 ships were sunk and many more damaged mostly by early 1960s era aircraft with free falling bombs and exocets. Todays navy is largely unchanged, the addition of vertical launched seawolf's, ciws and more capable electronic countermeasures does little to increase its effectiveness. The sea dart was deemed of limited effectiveness then and it is still our only longe range AAW. I believe the gadfly and grumble sams of the sovremennys and kirovs are far superior and their ASUW is much heavier. Also their naval aircraft are far more versatile than the sea harriers (which are being withrawn very soon anyway) especially in range, although I'm sure our air to air missiles and radars are better

rickusn

More updates:

Tier 6C)(few ships mostly quite modern except Thailand but they do have a small carrier)(are not far behind the above navies and in somes areas superior)

Thailand(no SSKs)

FF

2 Chinese-built 3000fl
2 ex-US Knox class

4 small frigates of little combat value

Argentina(vessels are newer than in Tier 6B but has similar #s although many are much smaller than those above)

FF

4 MEKO 360 3400fl

8 small frigates

SSK

2 German-built TR-1700
1 " " Type 209

Iran(lack adequate surface combatants)

5 small frigates of little combat value

3 Russian-built Kilo SSK

Singapore( 4 ex-Swedish SSKs)(building six new modern frigates)3200fl

Malaysia(buying SSKs)

4 Frigates 2000fl-2300fl

0+-2 French-built Scorpene SSK

Saudi Arabia(no SSKs but very modern surface combatants)

FF

3 French-built 4700fl
4 " " 2600fl

4 small frigates

Israel(lack adequate surface combatants)

3 small frigates but very powerful

3 German-built Type 800 SSK

Portugal

0+1 ex-US OHP 4100fl

FF

3 MEKO 200 3200fl

SSK

2 French- built being replaced by:

2 German-built

Colombia

4 small frigates very well armed

2 German-built Type 209

Egypt( Like Argentina it could easily be in 6B as here)

FFG

4 ex-US OHP 3900fl

FF

2 ex-US Knox 4200fl

4 small frigates

SSK

4 Chinese Romeo but heavily modernized

rickusn

Here are some re- update:

Tier 5B)(These countries have same limitations as above plus their ships are a mix of older and newer but in some cases less capable ships than above although Taiwan and Turkey have many more surface combatants #s wise)

Taiwan

(soon 4 ex- Kidd class DDG(replacing 7 ex-US WWII vintage DD), 8 OHP design Frigates, 6 Lafayette design Frigates w/ sonar unlike the French units, 8 ex-US Knox class Frigates)

(2 SSK Netherlands-built but are trying to buy 8 modern ones)

Turkey

(8 ex-US OHP Frigates, 8 MEKO 200 Frigates, 5 ex-US Knox Frigates)

(12 SSKwith two building German-design Type 209)

Greece( 1 ex-US DDG, 4 MEKO 200 Frigates 3200fl, 10 ex-Netherlands Frigate 3800fl)

(8 SSK German-design Type 209 building four new ones German design Type 214)

Tiers 6A, 6B, 6C are navies in flux. But I thought some type of breakdown was necessary. 6A navies are on the cutting edge of technology but #s are closer to 6C which are modern compared to 6B in general.(Notable exception is Pakistan and Chiles new build SSKs.)

(Tier 6A)(These countries are modernizing but have ships in far fewer #s than above, SSK are modern )

Sweden

(4 SSKs, 5 Visby Stealth Corvettes)

Norway

(6 SSK German-built, Buying 5 new Frigates)

Denmark

(Building 4 new frigates, 2 Flexible Support ships a cross between a frigate and an amphibious ship)

(Have had SSKs until recently)


S.Africa

(buying 3 new SSK German-built Type 209, 4 new Frigates German-built MEKO 200)

(Tier 6B)(These countries have older ships although especially in the case of Pakistan have good SSKs)(Have generally a couple more vessels than above.)

Chile

(Replacing current fleet(4 ex-UK DDG and 4 ex-UK Frigates) with up to 3 ex UK Frigates w/ one already in service plus 4 ex-Netherlands Frigates)

(4 SSK)

1+1 French-built Scorpene
2 German-built 209

Pakistan

(6 ex-UK Frigates)3700fl

(8 SSK w/ one building)(all French-built)



Peru

( 1 ex-Netherlands Cruiser, 4 Lupo class Frigates were to get four ex-Italian Lupo Frigates but apparently this wont happen)

(6 SSK German-built Type 209)

Venezuela

(6 Lupo class Frigates)2500fl

(2 German-Built Type 209 SSK)

Indonesia

(6 ex-Netherland frigates)3000fl

(2 SSK German-built Type 209)


AS you can see from this post and the above posts German-designed/built Frigates and submarines predominate. France has also had some export success. As has Russia.

The US , UK and Netherlands have many ex- ships serving in other navies in addition to exports of built or designed ships.

rickusn

France

1 CVN(plus building two amphibious assault carriers bu not planned to operate fixed wing aircraft)

DDG

0+3 Horizon 7000fl
1 Masurca SAM built 1970 will retire soon

FFG(are typed as DDGs but are really frigates)

2 Cassard(have recycled SM-1 systems)

DD/FF(the first nine are typed DD but role is much like modern frigates)

0+17 5400fl (These will replace the above two units, one decommissioned Tourville class plus the two survivors, seven G. Leygues and the five La Fayette)

7 4500fl
2 5900fl
5 3600fl(no sonar)

9 small frigates

SSN

0+6 Barracuda to replace Rubis class
6 Rubis

4 SSBN

UK

0+2 CV

3 CVH(plus one amphibious assault carrier can operate Harriers )

DDG/FFG (Size and role more akin to modern AAW frigates)

0+8 Type 45 to replace Type 42

9 Type42 4300fl

FF

4 Type 22 4900fl
16 Type 23(three being prematurely decommissioned w/ 2 of them possibly being sold to Chili)

SSN

0+8 Astute to replace those below

11 Trafalger/Swiftsure

4 SSBN

Russia

Discussed this in a post above except submarines:


12-20 SSN approx. operational(could be some Victor III left and not all of other classes in service are operational)

7 SSGN approx operational

7 Kilo SSK approx operational

9-14 SSBN approx operational(the five surviving Delta III were to be decommissioned by now but may stay in operation for some time yet)


Next : the bottom 1/3

Then Ill attempt to edit/clarify all sections and place the whole as a new topic.

Anybody out there have questions/comments/corrections etc.?

Thx Rick