Franco Lolan

PLA Navy vs. US (littoral warfare in W Pacific) [especially in regards to Subs]
The Chinese Navy as a whole has improved. Chinese subs have improved dramatically (sonar, anechoic tiles, AID, wake homing torpedoes). A number of US Naval Officers now consider the upgraded Kilo Class on par with the Los Angeles. Keeping with Soviet Doctrine, mass missile strike is the preffered tactic cs carrier groups. Submarines are a facet of that doctrine (Soveremensky/Badger/etc). PLA also shows great interest in isolating Taiwan from the world with an effective sub blockade (merchant losses around Strait of Formosa would lead to halt=Taiwan in problems) Since the end of the Cold War, there has been declivity in the dedication of US ASW efforts (egz. loss of SOSUS). Littoral ASW operations are extremely hard to conduct, and Chinese oceonagraphic mapping of much of the W Pacific has provided them with a great tactical advantage (current flows, temp, etc). I encourage you to consult these reports http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/tech_21st/uw1.htm, http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2004hea...commission.htm.

The forum question is: Is the US up to the challenge of defending Taiwan from the imposition of a blockade upon it by China (and possible subsequent invasion), particularly in the arena of submarines? What does the US need to do to stay on top or regain the upper hand? Perspicacity would be appreciated.

I am relatively new; however, I do read assiduously and respect formulated opinions.

Franco Lolan

PLAAF and PLA as well as USAF/USMC/US Army can be included in strategy.

Officer of Engineers

The problem with the linked publications is what WE think the PLAN would do, not what the PLAN think they would do. The PLAN themselves never mentioned blockade. It was mentioned in Hong Kong newspaper and then the story took a life of its own without any collaborating evidence from the Chinese.

The Chinese are planning to use their sub force in any conflict with Taiwan, not for blockade but as a kamakazie delaying force against the USN in order to allow time for the ground action to be decided.

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Chimo

Franco Lolan

See your Hong Kong story point, nice research.
You view it as "Kamikaze" force, in my humble opinion it is much more. Read some of the new devs china-defense.com or sinodefense.com . Their dielels are getting very nice, Kilo possibly nicer than LA Class already. Aussies have gotten through US ASW screens with subs less advanced than Kilo, why couldn't the Chinese? Furthermore, an Oscar class strike would seriously harm if not cripple fleet. Any good points advances on littoral warfare? What US needs? Strategy? Post it please.

Officer of Engineers

I'm one of the moderators of CDF and I wrote "Tactical Impressions of the People's Liberation Army."

Please refer to the War Zone Campaign thread, pages 22 onward to see how this play out.

Franco Lolan

im a real tyro, can u plz send me a link or give me directions to find that?

Officer of Engineers

This is the start of the TW scenario and how WZC fits in

War Zone Campaign Discussion, page 12 - CDF requires registration simply to cut down bandwidth issue. We are a very popular academic forum about China. You might want to start from page 1 just to get an overall feel of the work and the mistakes we've made. The mistakes are important for us so that we don't repeat them.

However, I've posted an overall summary in this forum

World Affairs Board - CDF & TMF's work on the PLA WZC in the TW Context

Capt Stephen Miles did a very excellent article concerning freighter based artillery

PLA Experimentation with Armed Cargo Ships

which serves to illustrate that the PLAN would play very little role in any actual assualt on the island.

Of course, my own Tactical Impressions of the People's Liberation Army - nothing to do with subs but to show the dominance of army thinking vs the other branches.

Franco Lolan

Thank you for the links. I read your Tactical Impressions and the Cargo Ship articles before. I'll read the first two in some time. I liked the point in the Cargo Ship tract that "civilian" assets would be used in war environment. My Dad works in logistics, and he comments on the huge numbers of Chinese container ships (b/c surplus of Fe + need 2 keep labor force employed.). In war situation ships and airplanes would swarm in "quantity" attack. Thank you, I'll read.

Does anyone have comments on sub developments and strategy?

Jay

This isnt a new concept, If I'm not mistaken. UK/USA did that in WW2, they used civilian ships for arms supply, China refined it further.
But anything that comes out of China would be engaged during wartime. It also happened in WW2 (Germany attacked UK/US civilian vessels suspecting that they transport weapons) and it'll be the same in TW-China war, if that happens.

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A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

Officer of Engineers

Of the person to ask is Captain (Naval) Sid Trevethan under the handle El Cid. He frequents CDF sometimes but mostly stay at Strategypage.com. He's a former submariner and would be best able to answer you.

Franco Lolan

ok, ty