bigross86

I read somewhere that the Kidd can have it's AAM's controlled by Aegis ships. Is this true?

__________________
You're a naughty girl, go to my room!

Stinger

They can be slaved to an AEGIS Controller if I remember corretcly, its part of the data link a CVBG uses.

__________________
Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

bigross86

Can it work the other way around? What about the CVN's RIM-7's? Can they be controlled by an AEGIS ship?

Stinger

I think AEGIS can also recieve the all the data from an escorts Radars and such, but the assigned AEGIS ship is the brain of the system. An Arliegh Burke Could take over for a crippled Tico, but standard frigate could not. The RIM-7's I think are a seperat close in defense system, like CWIS.

bigross86

Is the range of the RIM-7 the same as the AIM-7?

lurker

Ok, let see numbers.

The main idea behind Sunburn - very fast sea-skimmer (2.5M speed cruise, 2.8 attack).

Since it's skimming, i.e. flying just over the sea level - I doubt that it is possible to detect it at ranges over 10 n. miles (fas.org states that as MAX range of the AN/SPQ-9B radar).

How many seconds is left before missiles hit the target? (All numbers are for the cruising speed, not attack) The answer is 21-22 seconds(!!!). In that time - Kidd sould determine it as hostile, turn it's launchers into the incoming missiles direction and fire.

Remembering that SM2 is semi-acrive, and I think i've read something that system cannot attack more tha 4 targets simultaneously.

Even with 75% hit probability - 5 from 8 missiles salvo will survive till second SM2 launch (which will have only 10 seconds or less to intercept before Sunburns hit).

After that there is only 2 Phalanx left for poin-blank defence... And how many seconds will missiles be in range of those? Not more than 4-5 seconds(!!!).

At least Sovremenny have 4 30mm guns instead of just 2 (20 mm)... And Harpoons are much slower than Sunburns.

__________________
Long time we thought that a million monkeys in front of a million typewriters would eventually type William Shakespeare's complete works.
After invention of the Internet, we understand that it's not true.

bigross86

Yeah, but harpoons have the pop-up maneuver right before they attack, and there's almost always an AWACS up that will detect the missiles from way beyond 10 nm, and in that time until the Kidd detects them they can already swivel the launchers and light everything up.

lurker

Well... I seriously doubt it, but nothing can prove you wrong.
Looking at just 2 ships without the whole fleet is kind of meaningless.

Many things will play their part, including battle environment and training. And there is no navy in the world that is yet trained to intercept multiple fast sea-skimmers.

btw, latest versions of the Harpoon doesn't do a pop-up anymore.

p.s. Just remembering that and the "Stark" incident - most probably "Kidd" will not survive even a single hit of the 2-3 tonn missile.

bigross86

Can missiles from a plane/boat be slaved to an AWACS' control?

Anon

The latest Aegis system, the Mk7 Baseline 7B can control ALL integrated fleet defenses.

That's guns, missiles, and harsh language(jamming).

Anon

"Is the range of the RIM-7 the same as the AIM-7?"
No, about 1/3 the range of AIM-7.

RIM-7 NSSMS is being withdrawn from USN Service and being replaced with the RIM-162 ESSM, with a range of about 30 miles.

Anon

"Ok, let see numbers."

Lets.

"The main idea behind Sunburn - very fast sea-skimmer (2.5M speed cruise, 2.8 attack)."

Main idea behind SM-2, even FASTER. Try Mach 3.5 to 70 nautical miles.

"Since it's skimming, i.e. flying just over the sea level - I doubt that it is possible to detect it at ranges over 10 n. miles (fas.org states that as MAX range of the AN/SPQ-9B radar)."

Radar/Visual horizon for an object AT sea level is 22 nautical miles. Care to guess again???

The electronic detection range for a MASSIVE missile like Sunburn, even on the deck, will be about 25-30 miles.

"How many seconds is left before missiles hit the target? (All numbers are for the cruising speed, not attack) The answer is 21-22 seconds(!!!). In that time - Kidd sould determine it as hostile, turn it's launchers into the incoming missiles direction and fire. "

Takes 8 seconds for a Kidd to load it's rails, swivel it's launchers, and fire 4 missiles. That means in your 22 second time frame the Kidd can launch 10 SM-2's at the incoming Sunburns(That's using your incorrect detection range of 10 miles. At 22 miles(FLIR detection range), the Kidd would have 45 seconds or more to react and intercept.

"Remembering that SM2 is semi-acrive, and I think i've read something that system cannot attack more tha 4 targets simultaneously. "

Yup, 4 illuminators- 4 targets, 2 missiles each.

"Even with 75% hit probability - 5 from 8 missiles salvo will survive till second SM2 launch (which will have only 10 seconds or less to intercept before Sunburns hit). "

I'd figure of the 10 SM-2's the kidd could salvo in 22 seconds, that half would score hits. That leaves three Sunburns to be dealt with via Phalanx(two mounts), the 5" guns, and ECM(why does EVERYONE forget ECM?)- this is again using your incorrect detection threshold of 10 miles.

"After that there is only 2 Phalanx left for poin-blank defence... And how many seconds will missiles be in range of those? Not more than 4-5 seconds(!!!). "

Takes six seconds start to finish for a Phalanx intercept. Both mounts can track and engage independent of one another.

"At least Sovremenny have 4 30mm guns instead of just 2 (20 mm)... And Harpoons are much slower than Sunburns."

Only two of the Sov's AK-130 mounts can be brought to bear on one axis, so it's a wash.

Harpoon is certainly much slower, but it's also got a MUCH lower IR signiture and RCS.

The Kidd's main antiship killing mechanism is it's SM-2's.

A Sovremney has zero capability to succesfully engage a tight packed salvo of 2x4 waves of Mach 3.5 SM-2's.
Even if it could, the Kidd can just fire 8 more.

The Harpoons would be used to finish it's opponent after the Sovremney was mission killed with the SM-2's first.

Anon

"And there is no navy in the world that is yet trained to intercept multiple fast sea-skimmers."

Ummm, wrong. The Missile the USN uses to practice it's fleet AAW is even faster than the Sunburn...much faster.

That's the missile that gives the USN fits(and only in certain scenarios where incoming vampire detection time is very small).

"btw, latest versions of the Harpoon doesn't do a pop-up anymore."

The latest Harpoon has numerous terminal manuevers to choose from. One of them is the pop-up.

lurker

Only 2 from any direction. We can say the same about "Kidds" Phalanxes, but it leaves only one able to shoot on some angles (Namely - wide angles close to bow or stern .

Independent tracking means that Phalanxes can lose time on the same missile, leaving others untouched.

Which is kind of short-legged, and using only fragmentation blast warheads (means - easily defeated by any kind of armouring .

Except 2 double barrel 130mm and 30mm guns all fully auhtomated and can shoot anything moving on speeds up to 830 meters per second.
Moreover they are coordinated, and can engade different targets.

And since "Standards" (as any of the solid-fuel missiles) are burning their engines only when starting their trajectory - their speed will be lower at the end.

Russian SA-N-7 Gadly are similar to Standard missiles an many ways, which is stated by many sources, including fas.org and others.

p.s SM2 max speed is 3+M which is not dramatically faster than 2.8M Sunburn attack speed.

p.p.s. Which "missile" is US Fleet using to train against fast moving targets? Care to provide a name? "much faster" is more suitable for fantasy books, like Clancy's, but it's nowhere near the facts.

Anon

"Only 2 from any direction. We can say the same about "Kidds" Phalanxes, but it leaves only one able to shoot on some angles (Namely - wide angles close to bow or stern )."

The Kidd's Phalanxes are arrayed so that by turning broadside to the threat both mounts are unmasked. So either way, both ships can only attack with two CIWS mounts into one axis.

"Independent tracking means that Phalanxes can lose time on the same missile, leaving others untouched. "

Independent tracking means that's exactly what they don't do. If one Phalanx is targeting a missile, and more threats are inbound, the second Phalanx will automaticly slew to another target.

"Which is kind of short-legged(SM-2), and using only fragmentation blast warheads (means - easily defeated by any kind of armouring )."

70 miles is just as long as the range of the Harpoon, and there aren't any warships with any form of serious armor anymore. In any case, even if they were, the SM-2 is used to blow apart the opposing ship's radars, SAM mounts, CIWS mounts, etc.

They won't sink it, but they will mission kill it easily.



"Except 2 double barrel 130mm and 30mm guns all fully auhtomated and can shoot anything moving on speeds up to 830 meters per second.
Moreover they are coordinated, and can engade different targets. "

Only two can engage at once, and the will have a maximum engagement window of about 3-4 seconds to hit 4 missiles. You like those odds?

"And since "Standards" (as any of the solid-fuel missiles) are burning their engines only when starting their trajectory - their speed will be lower at the end."

SM-2 flies a ballistic trajectory in SSM mode. This allows it to maintain an attack velocity of about 1800+ Knots(Mach 3.5).

"Russian SA-N-7 Gadly are similar to Standard missiles an many ways, which is stated by many sources, including fas.org and others. "

Except that they have very short range, are slower, and use unproven Russian seekers. Besides that, sure...they're the same.

"p.s SM2 max speed is 3+M which is not dramatically faster than 2.8M Sunburn attack speed."

Mach 3.5 is terminal attack speed for SM-2 in SSM mode. That's a lot faster than Mach 2.8

"p.p.s. Which "missile" is US Fleet using to train against fast moving targets? Care to provide a name? "much faster" is more suitable for fantasy books, like Clancy's, but it's nowhere near the facts."

The MA-31, to be replaced with the MQM-8G(ER) Vandal/Sea Snake SST target drone.

Rumored top speed for the Vandal is Mach 4.5+

That 'much faster' enough for you?