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Thread: Building a Tamiya Missouri with Super-detailing

  1. #346
    Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Builder 2010 View Post
    I bought some solid brass square bar stock and it's actually the perfect size to make the yard arm. I might actually have to add a bit of thickness in the center. So instead of having to file away a ton of material, I have to add some. Will be getting down in the shop shortly and work on the masts some more. Working off-line with Doktor to design the packing and we're on to something that might work.
    Are you going to use solder to build up the thick area? I was thinking that would be easy to file and shape
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  2. #347
    FJV
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    Are you going to use solder to build up the thick area? I was thinking that would be easy to file and shape
    If you are going to file solder, then maybe it is a good idea to use blackboard chalk on the file to prevent the soft metal from clogging the file teeth as much as possible.

    Just remember to clea the files after you're done, because chalk attracts water and that can cause the file to rust.

    Also files only cut on the forward stroke, if you use pressure on the reverse stroke you damage the file's teeth. Lifting the file on the reverse stroke is a good idea. Unless you are draw filing if I remember correctly/

    Also for filing brass there are files with a different cutting angle if I remember correctly.

    http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodw...iling_2006.pdf

  3. #348
    Contributor Builder 2010's Avatar
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    All good suggestions... now I just have to figure out where I left that chalk...

    Here's a detail that I wish could be reproduced in 1:350, but would be impossible. It's the way the antenna leads are actually belayed on the boat. The tension is handle by a bracket welded to the insulating bushing and the wire is supported by a turnbuckle underneath another insulator. The lead then passed through the insulating bushing into the ship. No tension is actually placed on the bushing. These are in the alley between the midships AA tubs.

    Name:  Radion Antenna Down feed.jpg
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    Last edited by Builder 2010; 31 Jan 12, at 04:29.

  4. #349
    Contributor Builder 2010's Avatar
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    Packing Design

    Doktor and I have been designing the packing and we've got something that will work. Here's the diagram.

    Name:  Packing design 4.jpg
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    The cross-pieces keep the boat solid in the form-fit cradle and they in turn are locked (or part) of the lid. Notice, nothing's touching the radar/rigging. I am concerned about one point, the main deck railing that will be close to the vertical supports. With careful fitting and relief cuts, this should be okay too.

    Thanks to Doktor, this should work.

  5. #350
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Builder 2010 View Post
    Here's a detail that I wish could be reproduced in 1:350, but would be impossible. It's the way the antenna leads are actually belayed on the boat. The tension is handle by a bracket welded to the insulating bushing and the wire is supported by a turnbuckle underneath another insulator. The lead then passed through the insulating bushing into the ship. No tension is actually placed on the bushing. These are in the alley between the midships AA tubs.

    Name:  Radion Antenna Down feed.jpg
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    You could do that. GMM has 1/350 turnbuckles on most of their frets.

    Maybe use some phone wire insulation, 24 or 26 gage, as the insulator.

    Then a small strand of whatever you are using for rigging to the insulator bushing.

    Or double the rigging line back, from the turnbuckle,the length of the insulator. Use superglue to form the insulator and give it shape. Paint it. Then attach the running end of the line to the bushing.

    I've seen it over on the ship modeling forum. And its well within your skillset.
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  6. #351
    Contributor Builder 2010's Avatar
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    The problem as I see it is the inaccessibility of that alleyway. Those tie-in points are tiny. I've drilled them out so a line could just enter them. You'd never see that detail once it's in since the gun tubs block the view. I'm more or less thinking how much fun it would be to build a 1/96th version... sigh. I just can't imagine how to handle a 9ft. model. Fellows that make them for RC sailing use actually split the hull in a fore and aft section with dowels and bolts with each half being water tight on their own. I'd have to split it in three sections. I could get a 3 ft section out of the basement. Oh... and it would probably cost 10 thousand bucks to build. If I'm spending 10 grand I'll stick with my trains where I've already invested multiples of that.

    BTW: I ended up having a free afternoon and worked on the boat. I'm fussing with the topmast. I'm turning some small rings that will go onto the brass mast. I first had to do some adjustments to the lathe, fix a couple of braces that got knocked off the mast top when I accidentally put too much pressure on it. There was nothing to photograph of note yet. That will happen tomorrow.
    Last edited by Builder 2010; 01 Feb 12, at 00:18.

  7. #352
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    More on Masts and Radar

    Cut the mast to proper length and ground the flat on the bottom to key into the mast footing. Here's what it looks like just sitting there.

    Name:  Mast top complete.jpg
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    There's a lot more that goes on around this installation: outriggers attached to the bottom of the air defense level with a angular brace extending down to the flank just in front of the ship's whistle, triangular bracing with their apex aftward connecting to that pole that sticking out at a 45 angle, plus the yardarm.

    Next came the top mast. I made this out of a piece of 0.042" brass, with some pieces that I machined on the lathe. They're a little fatter than the plastic pieces they're replacing. I probably could have made them a little thinner, but who's measuring. I chose not to solder these on; CA'd them instead. I couldn't keep the flag pole from de-soldering itself. There's absolutely no load on those parts so they're not going anywhere. There's one more radar that goes right on top of this mast that will go on near the end.

    Here's the new part compared to the plastic one.

    Name:  Top mast.jpg
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    Now, getting it to stick to the main mast is not easy since the attachment area is very small. I'm using J-B weld epoxy (which is mixed with steel particles) in hopes that it will be secure. I had my doubts, partly because just after this next picture was taken, I went to remove the cardboard backdrop and bumped the completely un-cured mast and knocked it off. I re-attached it, and hoped that it rejoined properly. I just went down and checked it... the J-B weld worked perfectly. It's nice and secure, plus there will be some guy wires supporting it.

    Name:  Main Mast complete.jpg
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    While this was curing, I turned my attention to the SK2 radars, since this is going to be the centerpiece of the entire radar array and if done well, will make any other mast imperfections less obvious.

    I made a scan of the actual PE fret and then measured the radius of the back supports of the radar. With this information I was able to imagine a male/female die set of that radius, used in the drill press, to press the radar screen into a close approximation of an SK2.

    Here's the image with the circle approximating the curve. I know, I know, radar reflectors are actually some part of a parabola, but the circle will get us close. The screen will probably spring out a bit to a natural parabola anyway.

    Name:  SK2 Measure.jpg
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    What you see on the Taig Lathe is a ball-turning attachment I bought a number of years ago to attempt to make the ball ends on ship rail stanchions. I never used it for that, but for this purpose it was perfect. It took a while to set it all up for a couple of reasons. The way the unit is set up, you have to use it with the workpiece clamped in a collet, not the lathe chuck. Unfortunately, the collet set I have is not very flexible and required me to turn the other end of the die to a diameter that more perfectly fit the collet. Then you have to center the attachment so the center of rotation is on the lathe's center line.

    Name:  Radar Forming Male Die.jpg
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    The die is shown over the flat radar screen. Next step: making something into a female die. I'm thinking of turning again to J-B weld, only this time I'm going to use the epoxy putty instead of the gel stuff. I'll coat the male die with some grease and stick in into the putty, let it cure 24 hours and I think we'll have a system that could nicely form the screen.

    I'm also going to strip the paint of the radar while still in the flat and then anneal it so it will mold more easily.

    If there's anyone out there that thinks this won't work, tell me because I'm heading that way.
    Last edited by Builder 2010; 02 Feb 12, at 02:56.
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  8. #353
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    More on Masts and Radar part 3

    Had a short work session today since everything had to cure. I made the female die for the radar-forming set. I used J-B Weld conventional steel-loaded epoxy again (probably overkill), and after mixing, lowered the brass punch into it so it would cure with the proper shape. Before dipping I covered the punch with Parafilm M so the punch and die won't permanently weld themselves together. Parafilm is a flexible wax sheet that originally was developed for laboratory seals, but has been adopted by us modelers since it makes an excellent flexible masking material for masking compound curves like airplane canopies.

    I used my drill press to put the two parts together and put a small bar clamp on the depth gauge so the spindle would stay put. I am sincerely hoping that the wax will keep the J-B Weld from sticking to the punch...

    Name:  Radar Forming Male Die.jpg
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    With that curing (overnight or longer), I added another detail to the mast assembly: the SK2 base. Eduard has you cut this part off the plastic mast top, but since this is an "all-brass" deal, I made one. It's 1/8" in diameter, but I didn't have any 1/8th stock so I turned it down from the next nearest size I had. It has a truncated portion in the front which I made with the diamond wheel in the Dremel. Since the J-B Weld held the top mast so well I decided to use it to hold this part on also.

    Here's the assembly along with the plastic part it all replaces. Note: the radar screen sitting there. I stripped the paint from it, and then annealed it so it will conform to the mold easily.

    Name:  SK2 Base in place.jpg
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    My die might be a little deep which will make extracting the formed screen more difficult. After it cures I'll evaluate it and, if needed, chuck it in the lathe and reduce the die's height. J-B Weld with its steel content, can be machined.
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  9. #354
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    SK2 Radar: Test Article

    The mold was completely cured rock solid so I was ready to try it out. For this attempt I used all the parts from the first set of Eduard PE. Some of them were pretty beat up and if they worked, great!, But if they don't I have a fall back set.

    I put the screen over the female die and brought the punch down using my drill press. I had to use a tool to pry the screen out of the mold since it fit very snugly.

    Here's the set up.

    Name:  SK2 Forming set.jpg
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    At first glance, it looked perfect, but after closer examination I did notice a problem, and I'm not sure how to solve it. If you look at the highlighted area in this shot that the screen edge folded over on itself. I believe this is due to the piece not stretching enough during the draw. Instead of stretching as the piece goes into the curve, it needs to shrink at the perimeter and it does this by folding inward.

    Name:  SK2 Forming Defect.jpg
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    I continued working with this piece just to see how it all works out.

    One problem I noticed right away. The outermost circular brace's diameter is bigger than the o.d. of the screen (the screen shrunk) so fitting it on was a little sketchy. This diameter difference again shows up when putting on the back braces. You can see that they extend outside a bit. I can fix that after they're all in place.

    Here's the main braces which cross-lap one another.

    Name:  SK2 back bracing Test 1 -1.jpg
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    These were a little bent while on the fret so they're not so straight here either.

    The remaining braces are folded to an acute angle and then inserted around the perimeter in line with the etched braces on the screen itself.

    Name:  SK2 back bracing Test 1 - 2.jpg
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    Finally, there's a series of rings that are CA'd to the back braces.

    Name:  SK2 Complete test 1.jpg
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    It was difficult centering these rings and getting them CA'd. I supported the screen on the top of the punch which gave it support and kept me from crushing it. It's really easy to do that.

    The rings don't look so hot, but this is a severe closeup and the screen doesn't look as gruesome in person. Also, when painted it will look better. But, I'm confident that I can build the next one more precisely and if I can't, I have this one as a fall-back.

    If's there's some thinking about how to make the die work better, I'm open for suggestions.
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  10. #355
    FJV
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    Not sure..

    Maybe do it in 2 or 3 steps with annealing between steps.

    Maybe a blank holder is possible? That's what they usually do to prevent folding.




    Also differences in material thickness between the mesh and the rings might be a factor.

  11. #356
    FJV
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    You could also try some lubrication.

    The problem is that you could run out of photoetch parts before you succeed in making it work.

    Maybe trying on brass sheet circles first could be an option?

    Even then it would not be guaranteed to work on the PE part.

  12. #357
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    SK2's Cont.

    You're absolutely right! In order to deep draw, you have to clamp the material so it stretches into the die. Of course this requires extra material on the blank so there's something to clamp it to. And the PE part has no extra material. It's final size. So it folds in on itself instead of stretching.

    And to make matters worse... (now this really indicates how utterly ineffective as a model maker I can sometimes be)... I was working on a bracket to mount the SK2 to the base that is more substantial and prototypical than the PE piece in the set. I looked down on the bench and the SK2 wasn't there. Where was it? Must be on the floor. Yup! On the floor! And I had either rolled over it with my desk chair wheel or stepped on it. And it was FLATTENED! Darn that Murphy! Here's proof that a PE part is unable to support a 185lb human.

    Name:  SK2 Test 1 Destruction.jpg
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    Thank goodness I did have that extra set...

    Meanwhile, let me talk about the bracket. I used a piece of brass channel and with some tiny drilled holes and using some diamond-coated burrs in the Dremel, pieced the metal to make a more filigreed-appearing piece. Here it is on the pedestal, waiting for the J-B Weld to cure. I also was not happy with the plumb of the top mast. It was tipping backwards and slightly starboard. I had to break it off, clean up the J-B Weld on the base and the hole, and then reglued it. This time, I used a clamping arrangement to keep it straight until it cures.

    Name:  SK2 Bracket.jpg
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    While the part is a bit fatter than scale, 350th makes it very hard to use "scale-sized" materials. 1" in 350th is smaller than a human hair (0.0028") so you must use things that are larger, often 2 to 4X. This bracket will add strength to the most fragile construction on the model.

    So I had to redo the entire radar. This time the molding process even was more ragged, actually tearing out some of the mesh material. I was able to use a piece from the scrapped test piece #1 to patch the biggest gap. The other one is visible in this picture. I may patch that too, depending on how I feel about it.

    The rings went on much better in this iteration, and the back braces fit better since I kept the diameter of the screen a little larger so they didn't overhang very much. The few that were overhanging I filed off so they're even with the outer diameter.

    Name:  SK2 Test 2 - 01.jpg
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    You can see the emitter is now in place. Delicate!

    Name:  SK2 Test 2 - 02.jpg
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    I will be happy when all these pieces are in place on the ship, with their guy wires stabilizing everything. BTW: I bought some ultra-light-gauge guitar strings to use the high E (0.008") as the material for the backstays for the masts. I'm using this instead of stretched sprue due to its strength and stability. I will still use stretched sprue for the rigging. Although I've read that there's fly-tying nylon that can be used also.

    I still have to put on some life rings in various places, and I want to make some running lights for the P & S sides of the bridge level.

  13. #358
    Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Well, the other one was not nearly as attractive as this one - so perhaps Murphy was performing a service in this case? That dish is amazing - WOW!

    I need to use your pictures to fix some of my paintings - these views of the mast are priceless - seeing it go together like this is so instructive- I'm almost ready to post my lastest 85,000 ton monster-peice - it is one of my better efforts, your 3d art has contributed much to my 2d work - thank you
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 06 Feb 12, at 22:29.
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  14. #359
    FJV
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    You're absolutely right! In order to deep draw, you have to clamp the material so it stretches into the die. Of course this requires extra material on the blank so there's something to clamp it to. And the PE part has no extra material. It's final size. So it folds in on itself instead of stretching.
    Had a look around the internet and I haven't seen a lot of what you were trying to do.

    The thing that is attempted could require a lot of thought and experimentation.

    Deep drawing for instance isn't the only possibility.
    - Rubber pad forming.
    - Metal spinning?? (with the PE part behind the solid disk you're spinning on a mandrel).
    - hydro forming behind a rubber membrane?

    My approach would be to first experiment with discs from brass sheet the same size and thickness as the PE part.

    The first one I would use the exact same method as attempted before to see if I can re-create the issue.

    Then I could vary one parameter with each disc and try the different solutions.

    After a possible success on a solid disc I might be willing to risk another PE part.

    Would take a lot of time though!

  15. #360
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    The rubber pad forming was what the Eduard instructions described. I didn't have a ball bearing that was sized to do the job, and more importantly, I really wasn't sure what they were trying to have me do. That's why I tried to come up with another scheme. In looking at their rough edge on the Eduard picture, I'm not convinced that those results would have been much better. If I did it again, I'd try it just to see what it does. But that's not happening.

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